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The Vaccine

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I applaud you and the other folks in the medical field for being on the front lines on this issue, and I'm saddened to hear about those that have succumbed when Covid gets added to their medical struggles.

I think that one of the biggest issues here is that there is so much politicization of this whole thing. I can certainly see where some would come to the conclusion that if everyone willfully complied with this mandatory vaccination route the world would be a safer place. The issue is that the facts are disputable and we're starting to slide down a slippery slope forcing people to relinquish their right to think or choose for themselves. For every study there is another study that says the opposite. i.e. Over the years, orange juice was once a health food, then a carcinogen, then a health food, and back to a high sugar health risk, but people are still free to choose. Don't forget that it was the government who once murdered people for thinking that the earth revolved around the sun.

Now, on this topic when pharmaceutical companies are raking in the dough, when the CDC even said this is more survivable than Bird Flu was a few years ago when we did nothing, and political factions are pursuing lots of goals with this crisis - we are going to force people to do what some think is right today? Who pays the price if those in charge are wrong? What happens when this process becomes mandatory policy but there is a change in power and something else objectionable to this group becomes mandatory?

People have mistrust because the CDC and NIH have intentionally mislead people and now still want people to accept ever changing guidance without question. Right now when a study comes out, people are censored and belittled for questioning the facts which further breeds mistrust. Much of the guidance by "Reputable Medical Professionals" and bureaucrats has literally been pure nonsense (see cartoon). Even politicians are floating the idea that they can prevent people from going to restaurants and grocery stores unless they have relinquished their right to their own bodies for the greater good (Threat of starvation or complaince).

For the record, I am not in the medical field, but I spent my life in the government field. I've been on the inside and seen the government do shady stuff. I can say that they've been waiting for a crisis like this for a while. When we tweak the facts as the CDC and NIH is doing and financially incentivize behavior to achieve a goal, one really has to step back and objectively look at where this is all really going.

Captureddd.JPG
 
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One thing to ponder is why over 90% of docs are vaccinated and why only 50% of nurses are.

While I don't share the same opinion of the non-vaxed, I can see some of their reasoning. After speaking with many nurses as to the reasons why they will not get vaccinated, it sums up something along these lines "All throughout the pandemic, especially before the vaccine was released, you never saw healthcare workers dropping like flies". Which in my experience is true. Sure, some nurses got sick, a few throughout the country perished. But there was never an "oh shit nurses are dying in droves nationwide due to the pandemic". Perhaps it was the PPE that saved our asses? Maybe we have stronger immune systems than the average Joe? Who knows.

Another thing is that nurses are tough as hell. We take shit from all sides: Doctors (no offense), patients, family members, administrators, etc, etc. All while busting our asses trying to squeeze 50 lbs of sand into a 10 lb bag before our 12 hr shift is up. I feel nurses are fed up with this shit and are behaving a little defiantly which is completely understandable. How dare anybody shove anything down our throats? After all they've done? Nursing takes most of the burden in healthcare. We are overworked, underpaid, and deal with way too much bullshit. We/they are pissed! The pandemic has increased all of this ten fold. To be honest, I'm just about ready to give up on nursing; not even sure why I punch in anymore. I used to love this job. Thankfully my machine shop makes me plenty of money, and I just don't need to do it anymore. Plain and simple, it's a fucked up job. Pretty sure my mouth will get me shitcanned one of these days anyway. LOL. Been giving everybody, except the patients, plenty of FUs lately. LOL.
 
Just curious. How long after the second shot is the booster recommended?
 
I think the current recommendation is something along the order of 8mos after the final vaccination for this specific booster, but new data is coming out that the original vaccination isn't having the duration that they thought it might, so this time might change.

The other problem is that there are at least annual boosters already being discussed for many years to come. I haven't seen them explain why all the future boosters, but I assume that they say this because they plan on trying to head off future variants. You have to wonder how they will be successful with this when we've had so little success guessing the correct annual strain of flu shot every year.
 
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8 months. Ok I got a while then. Another stupid question and I assume the answer is no, but anyway to combine this annual booster (which seems likely) with the flu shot? Or are they different technologies, etc ?
 
That may be a question for a qualified licensed medical professional. They are absolutely VERY different technologies, but I've not seen anything addressing this answer yet in the public forum.
 
While I don't share the same opinion of the non-vaxed, I can see some of their reasoning. After speaking with many nurses as to the reasons why they will not get vaccinated, it sums up something along these lines "All throughout the pandemic, especially before the vaccine was released, you never saw healthcare workers dropping like flies". Which in my experience is true. Sure, some nurses got sick, a few throughout the country perished. But there was never an "oh shit nurses are dying in droves nationwide due to the pandemic". Perhaps it was the PPE that saved our asses? Maybe we have stronger immune systems than the average Joe? Who knows.

Another thing is that nurses are tough as hell. We take shit from all sides: Doctors (no offense), patients, family members, administrators, etc, etc. All while busting our asses trying to squeeze 50 lbs of sand into a 10 lb bag before our 12 hr shift is up. I feel nurses are fed up with this shit and are behaving a little defiantly which is completely understandable. How dare anybody shove anything down our throats? After all they've done? Nursing takes most of the burden in healthcare. We are overworked, underpaid, and deal with way too much bullshit. We/they are pissed! The pandemic has increased all of this ten fold. To be honest, I'm just about ready to give up on nursing; not even sure why I punch in anymore. I used to love this job. Thankfully my machine shop makes me plenty of money, and I just don't need to do it anymore. Plain and simple, it's a fucked up job. Pretty sure my mouth will get me shitcanned one of these days anyway. LOL. Been giving everybody, except the patients, plenty of FUs lately. LOL.

My wife has been an ER nurse for 10+ years, she has come home crying well before covid, she’s been burnt out for awhile, and covid only made it worse. She’s tried different roles as well, even slowing way down into being a clinic nurse and hated that. It doesn’t matter what role you have in nursing, you’re definitely underpaid and overworked. So totally understand where you’re coming from. I’ve been in EMS for 10+ years and I don’t work as hard as the nurses, I’ll be the first to admit that, but it doesn’t take much to get burnt out. I’m tired of the 24 hour shifts and being away from my family, and have seen plenty of things I wish I wouldn’t have (who hasn’t in the health field). Ya I may be on my soap box because I did choose this career, I knew I’d work long hours and weird shifts and see my share of things. But now that we’ve had a daughter (who’s almost 4 now) and working on the second kid I realize i would rather be home every night with my family.

Crazy stat for my medic class that graduated in 2013, there were 8 of us that passed, only 2 of us still work in EMS today. And I test for Motor Vehicle Enforcement (State DOT cop) this Saturday. Hate to leave the health field but in the end I have to do what’s best for my family and I.

Also in part of your response, I think PPE has definitely saved some of our asses when it comes to covid, but masks themselves do not for the general public. Do I think masks are somewhat effective? Sure, but those surgical masks are pretty much useless, according to the study below (10% effectiveness). Now N95s are much more effective so I’m sure it’ll only be a matter of time before everyone will be required to wear those instead. I was actually surprised to see the news reporting tonight on the study below.

 
My wife has been an ER nurse for 10+ years, she has come home crying well before covid, she’s been burnt out for awhile, and covid only made it worse. She’s tried different roles as well, even slowing way down into being a clinic nurse and hated that. It doesn’t matter what role you have in nursing, you’re definitely underpaid and overworked. So totally understand where you’re coming from. I’ve been in EMS for 10+ years and I don’t work as hard as the nurses, I’ll be the first to admit that, but it doesn’t take much to get burnt out. I’m tired of the 24 hour shifts and being away from my family, and have seen plenty of things I wish I wouldn’t have (who hasn’t in the health field). Ya I may be on my soap box because I did choose this career, I knew I’d work long hours and weird shifts and see my share of things. But now that we’ve had a daughter (who’s almost 4 now) and working on the second kid I realize i would rather be home every night with my family.

Crazy stat for my medic class that graduated in 2013, there were 8 of us that passed, only 2 of us still work in EMS today. And I test for Motor Vehicle Enforcement (State DOT cop) this Saturday. Hate to leave the health field but in the end I have to do what’s best for my family and I.

Also in part of your response, I think PPE has definitely saved some of our asses when it comes to covid, but masks themselves do not for the general public. Do I think masks are somewhat effective? Sure, but those surgical masks are pretty much useless, according to the study below (10% effectiveness). Now N95s are much more effective so I’m sure it’ll only be a matter of time before everyone will be required to wear those instead. I was actually surprised to see the news reporting tonight on the study below.


Thanks for sharing your's/wife's experiences. I commend you for moving on to greener pastures and wish you the best of luck on the DOT job. Family is #1 and it sounds like you are making the best decision.

Much, much agreed on the N95 being superior to standard surgical mask. For Covid, I believe they are extremely inferior to protect against this virus.
 
Masks can have more than one purpose. Absolutely agree that the n95 will protect the wearer from a non masked infected covid individual. But a medical masked person is less likely to contract covid if exposed to q medical masked infected person vs both non masked or even vs one none masked
 
8 months. Ok I got a while then. Another stupid question and I assume the answer is no, but anyway to combine this annual booster (which seems likely) with the flu shot? Or are they different technologies, etc ?

My guess is no they will not be combined. They are separate vaccines made by different manufacturers. Here is an up to date list posted on FDA website for flu vaccine lots released by FDA for 2021-2022, as of 8/18/21.

Jim
 
Masks can have more than one purpose. Absolutely agree that the n95 will protect the wearer from a non masked infected covid individual. But a medical masked person is less likely to contract covid if exposed to q medical masked infected person vs both non masked or even vs one none masked

In no way am I saying not to wear one for sure, I don’t mind wearing them, I’ve been skeptical of their effectiveness is all. Everyone should still continue to mask up wherever needed. I’ll wear a mask anywhere I have to, except on my boat ??
 
In no way am I saying not to wear one for sure, I don’t mind wearing them, I’ve been skeptical of their effectiveness is all. Everyone should still continue to mask up wherever needed. I’ll wear a mask anywhere I have to, except on my boat ??
all good. I didn't imply that you don't. Just sharing more info
 
I applaud you and the other folks in the medical field for being on the front lines on this issue, and I'm saddened to hear about those that have succumbed when Covid gets added to their medical struggles.

I think that one of the biggest issues here is that there is so much politicization of this whole thing. I can certainly see where some would come to the conclusion that if everyone willfully complied with this mandatory vaccination route the world would be a safer place. The issue is that the facts are disputable and we're starting to slide down a slippery slope forcing people to relinquish their right to think or choose for themselves. For every study there is another study that says the opposite. i.e. Over the years, orange juice was once a health food, then a carcinogen, then a health food, and back to a high sugar health risk, but people are still free to choose. Don't forget that it was the government who once murdered people for thinking that the earth revolved around the sun.

Now, on this topic when pharmaceutical companies are raking in the dough, when the CDC even said this is more survivable than Bird Flu was a few years ago when we did nothing, and political factions are pursuing lots of goals with this crisis - we are going to force people to do what some think is right today? Who pays the price if those in charge are wrong? What happens when this process becomes mandatory policy but there is a change in power and something else objectionable to this group becomes mandatory?

People have mistrust because the CDC and NIH have intentionally mislead people and now still want people to accept ever changing guidance without question. Right now when a study comes out, people are censored and belittled for questioning the facts which further breeds mistrust. Much of the guidance by "Reputable Medical Professionals" and bureaucrats has literally been pure nonsense (see cartoon). Even politicians are floating the idea that they can prevent people from going to restaurants and grocery stores unless they have relinquished their right to their own bodies for the greater good (Threat of starvation or complaince).

For the record, I am not in the medical field, but I spent my life in the government field. I've been on the inside and seen the government do shady stuff. I can say that they've been waiting for a crisis like this for a while. When we tweak the facts as the CDC and NIH is doing and financially incentivize behavior to achieve a goal, one really has to step back and objectively look at where this is all really going.

View attachment 161613
I hate masks and avoid using them when I can, but saying they don't do anything is just completely flawed on so many levels.

If you ever have surgery, God forbid, would you want your surgeon and the stuff to skip masking during surgery? Do you think they do this for show?
Serious question.

--
 
I hate masks and avoid using them when I can, but saying they don't do anything is just completely flawed on so many levels.

If you ever have surgery, God forbid, would you want your surgeon and the stuff to skip masking during surgery? Do you think they do this for show?
Serious question.

--
The issue is that many people have listened to or read articles/commentary that say masks are ineffective. These sources are flat out wrong, but they trust them. Cloth masks ARE way less effective than surgical ones, but that doesn’t mean they are not effective at all. Its all about the % effective. The bottom line is the argument was pertinent when we couldn't get N95 masks.....we can now. So ditch your cute N20 cloth masks, buy some decent ones and move on. If you don't, know that your cloth mask is 20% effective (which is far better than nothing) and move on. My doctor's office now makes you switch to a surgical mask if you arrive in a cloth one.....smart people!!!!
 
anyway to combine this annual booster (which seems likely) with the flu shot?

Combining influenza and coronavirus vaccines into a single injection is likely to be studied if not adopted.

Currently influenza vaccines are produced via chicken eggs which require millions of chickens to produce them. mRNA is much more efficient and faster to produce than the egg method. That speed may allow the vaccine to be more responsive to emerging influenza variants than the current system.

I expect that many existing childhood vaccines will be converted to mRNA vaccines. Doing so will provide additional profits for pharma during exclusivity periods but also will provide safer vaccines with fewer additives for humanity.

I do want to see more research into dosing. For SARS-CoV-2 there was a need to study and deploy rapidly. Dosing studies are occurring for the under 12 population. We need to continue such study to determine optimal dosing levels for all. Optimal being dosing levels with minimal adverse effects that cause sufficient antibody response.
 
Regarding masks, let's remember that they were NEVER the definitive measure to prevent the spread of Covic-19. Rather, there were one of several measures at the time.

I don't want to get into a debate on the % of transmission of droplets through a mask, but it is true that if I wear a mask I get some protection. I also get additional protection (as do you from me) if you wear a mask. Then add in protections from social distancing, and protection by washing/and or sanitizing our hands. There is no doubt that these measures helped slow the spread of Covid-19.

Of course, the gold standard now is getting vaccinated.

Interestingly, a few of the stores in my neck of the woods (southezstern PA) have gone back to mask mandates for all customers. It frustrates me, however, that many of these same stores have empty hand sanitizer dispensers at the store entrances.

Jim
 
It frustrates me, however, that many of these same stores have empty hand sanitizer dispensers at the store entrances.

Jim

This is so annoying. Force me to wear a mask but then you don't have hand sanitizer. Everywhere there is automatic sanitizer machines, they are out.
 
I hate masks and avoid using them when I can, but saying they don't do anything is just completely flawed on so many levels.

If you ever have surgery, God forbid, would you want your surgeon and the stuff to skip masking during surgery? Do you think they do this for show?
Serious question.

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@Julian is right. I've read studies where the efficacy of cloth and paper masks are much lower than 20%, but that number is close enough. Logically paper masks must offer some protection at least from droplets. $Julian is getting to the heart of the issue - Masks are not respirators, and not all masks are created equal. Even the CDC is now coming clean and saying that the surgical masks were never designed for such a purpose and shouldn't be used unless there are no other alternatives. Understanding Respiratory Protection Against SARS | NPPTL | NIOSH | CDC

No one I know of has ever said that ALL masks and respirators are a failure. The mask mandater's argument would be much stronger if there was a push for the N95 respirator or better. This is part of the point I was getting to earlier with distrust after the intentional misinformation coming out of the CDC who led people to believe that paper masks, T-shirts, bandanas, and just about any other material will protect against a virus which is an intentional falsehood. As skepticism intensified, the CDC doubled down by saying that multiple masks should be used simultaneously. Even today, few acknowledge that masks have a lifecycle and even the N95 respirators are supposed to be changed after several hours.

Did you know that OSHA level fines in excess of $20K against companies who issue paper masks to employees who work in dusty environments such as drywall work? If they can't protect against particulates below 50microns, how are they work against an aspirated virus as the general public now believes?

 
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