Batteries <electric vehicle battery>

[Julian]

I only repeated the WEF’s stated agendas. None of the above are my ideas. They are the openly stated goals of the people paying your favorite politicians off.

Just because some company/person has an "Agenda" and tries to pay off our elected officials doesn't mean that 1) That agenda will succeed, 2) there isn't a competing lobbyist, say from Big Oil paying them to do just the opposite, and the politicians are taking money from both and laughing.

There are plently of futurists talking about how electic vehicles with orders of magnitude fewer moving parts may be able to run 1-2 million miles. Combine self driving technology with that, and YES, there is a theory that many people will forgo buying a car and simply order an "Auto Uber" (self driving electric vehicle) to get from A-B.

Of course this will be a subset of the countries population as there will always be people like you who have long distances to drive, live in rural areas, and drive a TON for work. But you represent a small minority. That said, if I was your company I might seriously consider making you use a company EV to save the company money - once they can drive the distances you need - and charging speeds are increased (range and charging speeds are improving every year - just look at the phone in your hand - how much has charging speeds for it increased over the last 5 years?)






Bloomberg says we've already passed the tipping point that Tony Seba predicted in 2017/8....where once you hit 5% sales of a new technology the increase in adoption goes almost vertical. I'm no futurist or financial wizard, but you don't need "mandates" or some sinister "agenda" to see why EVs are so popular.

 

[BlkGS]

*yawn*

Yeah, it doesn't work for me for towing either, but it would work in every other facet of my life. Since these are still early days for EVs, its perfectly fine to not buy one. Its also perfectly reasonable to have an EV in addition to whatever ICE vehicle you like. And you do know that no one is actually making you buy one, right? right? I literally don't understand why people on your side of the discussion get so passionate about it - this would be like me telling people who like brussels sprouts about how terrible they are. This is a powerboat forum, by definition none of us are very 'green'.

First off, Brussels sprouts are stinky.

I get it, EVs have some really great applications. Buses, airport taxis, some emergency vehicles, etc are all great uses for them. If you live somewhere where you need a small commuting car, it makes sense.

The only side I'm on is the "they don't make a vehicle that works for me" side. I couldn't care less what other people buy as long as it isn't ugly (sadly, indo find most EVs ugly). If they make a PHEV that makes financial sense and has the space and capability my family needs, I'll consider it. Any criticisms I have are just things that would make them something that could work for me.

EV guys always get so upset about anything you say that isn't a worship of them and they get so upset. I wouldn't say its the early days of EVs, they've been making modern EVs for like... 15 years now? If anything, they're progressing the wrong way, because back 15 years ago you could get a mild hybrid full size suv, and invests were going into things like the Volt eith its range extended EV setup.

 

[Julian]

First off, Brussels sprouts are stinky.

I get it, EVs have some really great applications. Buses, airport taxis, some emergency vehicles, etc are all great uses for them. If you live somewhere where you need a small commuting car, it makes sense.

The only side I'm on is the "they don't make a vehicle that works for me" side. I couldn't care less what other people buy as long as it isn't ugly (sadly, indo find most EVs ugly). If they make a PHEV that makes financial sense and has the space and capability my family needs, I'll consider it. Any criticisms I have are just things that would make them something that could work for me.

EV guys always get so upset about anything you say that isn't a worship of them and they get so upset. I wouldn't say its the early days of EVs, they've been making modern EVs for like... 15 years now? If anything, they're progressing the wrong way, because back 15 years ago you could get a mild hybrid full size suv, and invests were going into things like the Volt eith its range extended EV setup.

I don't get upset at all. I will provide accurate data on things when I have it. EVs will meet the needs for the majority or Americans. Their prices are coming down as mass production increases. VW just opened a plant building the ID4 in Tennessee (if I recall).

The drive train is simply superior. And many of the new ones look really good. I loved the Kia EV6 (you have to see it in person), and the new Blazer looks good too. Not a fan of Teslas look. Eventually they'll be vehicles that appeals to every style.

No it's not the early days for EVs, but it is the inflection point of a new technology. You may not like it, but tons of people hates cars when they came out.

 

[BlkGS]

Just because some company/person has an "Agenda" and tries to pay off our elected officials doesn't mean that 1) That agenda will succeed, 2) there isn't a competing lobbyist, say from Big Oil paying them to do just the opposite, and the politicians are taking money from both and laughing.

There are plently of futurists talking about how electic vehicles with orders of magnitude fewer moving parts may be able to run 1-2 million miles. Combine self driving technology with that, and YES, there is a theory that many people will forgo buying a car and simply order an "Auto Uber" (self driving electric vehicle) to get from A-B.

You're a smart guy Julian, we BOTH know the million mile car isn't going to happen. Powertrains aren't what limit vehicle life. It's features, safety, and being wrecked. It's the AC going out and a shop charging 4k to replace it on a car worth 10k. It's the car that got t boned by a distracted or bad driver. Its the integrated center screen that stopped responding and is 8k plus has to be vin coded by the dealer. People don't scrap cars because the motor failed anymore, they scrap it because it runs but has dents and the paint is trashed and the ac doesn't work so nobody wants to buy it.

It will be no different for an EV. There's no shortage of ICE engines that could run a million miles if the cars around them survived. But the automakers (and for damn sure the EV industry) knows that's not good for their business, so they do things to ensure you upgrade. New features, increased performance, better materials, and obsoleted repair parts, out of date software... these are all things that get you to upgrade out of your perfectly good car, and it's only going to get worse as time goes on.

 

[Beachbummer]

Not really. Not when their first agenda was putting everyone into an EV, which forces everyone into centralized living areas due to limited range.

Who is forcing you where??? All I see are options available. You can still buy a school bus and drive it daily, your choice.

 

[Beachbummer]

Also, nothing keeps you from fixing a car's AC when the car is only worth $1000. I've never understood the logic there. You can repair add long as you want, nobody forces you to stop. If you like the model T you can go but one and keep it running forever.

I don't really grasp how you perceived your choices are limited.

 

[BlkGS]

Also, nothing keeps you from fixing a car's AC when the car is only worth $1000. I've never understood the logic there. You can repair add long as you want, nobody forces you to stop. If you like the model T you can go but one and keep it running forever.

I don't really grasp how you perceived your choices are limited.

I dontndosagree, but for 99% of the population, they don't want to.put 20% of what the car costs into a repair. Hell, that repair price point is probably lower even. People get scared that the big repair bill is just the first one in a string of expenses. If it's paid for, that one thing, but if your making payments AND paying for repairs, it looks pretty damn good to trade for something newer with a warranty, or at least a perceived better reliability. It's even worse for people with no mechanical abilities or space. Something like a replacement shock is 100 bucks (or probably 700 is you're @2kwik4u and have his audi ) and an hour or two diy to a grand or more to have a shop do it. Price that out for 4 corners and any other add ons, you could easily be looking at a couple grand. Hell, a buddy at work just had a 1400 dollar brake job on his civic at the dealer, new pads and rotors all around. I haven't even pulled the trigger on 400 bucks worth of pads and rotors yet because what I have is still fine, lol.

My daily is an 09, and there have been a few times I kicked myself for not buying something newer when shit went wrong, but in the end paying for a few repairs here and there is cheaper than a payment overall. While I don't really agree with the idea of trading out of something because it needs some upkeep, I get it.

Plus, our society is being trained to replace vs repair. When was the last time you repaired a TV? Look at how many people replace a phone because the screen cracked. Have you had a n appliance repaired lately? It's cheaper to buy a new dishwasher than it is to have a repair guy come out and fix one. We are being trained to not even bother with repairing and instead be a good consumer and buy a new one. And that is EXACTLY what will happen with EVs. They wont hit a million miles, they'll have 110k miles, 75% battery capacity, and a bricked center screen and get traded in on something new for pennies all things considered. It's what happens now, and will only.get worse because forever cars don't drive revenues. You don't build giant factories to not keep building more and more vehicles.

The rise of the car-less society... i'm not gonna touch that one with a 100 ft pole, because it is guaranteed to.go down a political rabbit hole. Suffice to say, I won't be car less until they pry my own personal vehicle out of my cold dead hands.

My choices are limited because there is no vehicle on sale right now that I can charge for a 30 to 50 mile commute, hold 7 people and stuff, tow 6000 to 7000 pounds, and be able to add 300 miles of range in 2 minutes or so. Grand Cherokee 4xe comes close (too small but only a fool wouldnt throw this into the wagoneer), xc90 t8 comes close (tow capacity is 5k or less iirc), and aviator grand touring comes close (actually - that might check all the boxes, but it was a crapload of money and kinda too small, plus they were impossible to find. They also downgraded the tow capacity for 21 or 22 to 5600lbs like explorer). And my use case isn't all that unique, I need a full-size suv, but if you gave me 30 to 50 miles of ev range I'd use virtually no gas until we went on a road trip. And the vehicle would still do everything I need.

 

[2kwik4u]

@BlkGS they're like $1,200/corner last I checked. Air spring struts with integrated remote variable damping is expensive. Very good chance I'll move to steel springs and static damping when these fail and supplement with airbags for towing....... assuming my Electric Silverado hasn't been delivered by then.....or I've grown tired of waiting and have bought a new AT4....who knows, I grow tired of vehicles far sooner than they wear out anyway.

A few points for the rest of the thread now that I've cleared the hurdle of being singled out for owning a stupid car

*Edit*.....

I had like 5 pages of rebuttal typed here. This shit is exhausting, I'm done engaging. Buy an EV or don't, I don't care. Vote your conscious, it's likely the most impactful thing you can do.

 

[BlkGS]

@BlkGS they're like $1,200/corner last I checked. Air spring struts with integrated remote variable damping is expensive. Very good chance I'll move to steel springs and static damping when these fail and supplement with airbags for towing....... assuming my Electric Silverado hasn't been delivered by then.....or I've grown tired of waiting and have bought a new AT4....who knows, I grow tired of vehicles far sooner than they wear out anyway.

A few points for the rest of the thread now that I've cleared the hurdle of being singled out for owning a stupid car

*Edit*.....

I had like 5 pages of rebuttal typed here. This shit is exhausting, I'm done engaging. Buy an EV or don't, I don't care. Vote your conscious, it's likely the most impactful thing you can do.

Thinking back on it, the X5 PHEV actually would have worked fine for us. But when I went to the dealership to look at x5 not a single salesperson could be bothered to leave the showroom and verbally assault me when I was there opening cars on the lot. I chocked it up to "a bit bigger would be better" and "I bet it'd be expensive to maintain". But it did check all the boxes, but I'm not gonna beg a dealership to sell me a car. Your horror stories of insanely expensive q7 parts probably would be echoed by me with insanely expensive x5 parts too.

I'm honestly surprised more automakers haven't gone full on with PHEV. They have the ability to, and in many cases have designed it in. Like, why on earth can you not get 3 row GC in 4xe? Why can't you get wagoneer in 4xe? Why is the new hybrid sequoia not a PHEV? Frankly, why is ANY new hybrid not a PHEV? Add a charging port and a slightly larger battery and boom, you just made your vehicle inherently more useful. I get that some hybrid only have like 20 mph top speeds with their electric motors, but that's fairly easily overcome with a more powerful motor, or you don't even overcome it and market it for stop amd go traffic.

At the end of the day, if you want to boost adoption, you do so by integrating tech in a easy to use way. If I can buy an ev that I can choose to never charge and use like a regular car but just get a bit better fuel economy, for not much nore money or even less money because of tax credits... that's gonna be an easy sell to most everyone.

 

[Beachbummer]

Not many gas cars can do all those things. I predict that will be an option either as a phev or all electric in the next 15 years.

I switched from a Nissan leaf to a volt in 2015 and 80% of my miles are electric, and the other 20 at 35mpg.

Looking at rav4 prime or similar as possible next one in the next 2-3 years as we may need another car.

Phev fits most all your boxes. Fast charge at the gas station, fuel sipper while on fuel, and most miles electric.

We have now more choices than ever. Some weird obscure entity will always wish you to go back to caveman energy use to fill their need, but as they say in Spanish, wishing alone won't impregnate.

Enjoy the new choices, or keep the old ones. You can probably keep running a 88 wagoneer or 2000 excursion for the entirety of your l lifetime for cheaper than ever replacing them with new cars. Totally up to you.

 

[BlkGS]

Not many gas cars can do all those things. I predict that will be an option either as a phev or all electric in the next 15 years.

I switched from a Nissan leaf to a volt in 2015 and 80% of my miles are electric, and the other 20 at 35mpg.

Looking at rav4 prime or similar as possible next one in the next 2-3 years as we may need another car.

Phev fits most all your boxes. Fast charge at the gas station, fuel sipper while on fuel, and most miles electric.

We have now more choices than ever. Some weird obscure entity will always wish you to go back to caveman energy use to fill their need, but as they say in Spanish, wishing alone won't impregnate.

Enjoy the new choices, or keep the old ones. You can probably keep running a 88 wagoneer or 2000 excursion for the entirety of your l lifetime for cheaper than ever replacing them with new cars. Totally up to you.

Every fullsize gas suv can do all those things. Pretty much since the late 90s, lol.

I honestly think we are on the cusp of a handful of options that will work. But I also could see GM and Ford missing the whole boat and going all in on EV and missing out on the majority that don't want a full on battery only car. That's all they talk about, where other smarter companies are embracing PHEV to give people what they want and need...

 

[Mesa50]

Tax credits up to $7,500 for qualifying incomes. Just another government bribe that I’ll pay for, but never be able to receive. You don’t have to give people $7,500 to take something, if it’s so incredibly desirable. We didn’t need to be bribed to buy our boats, did we?

 

[tabbibus]

Well, Tesla lost the 7500 incentive a long time ago and they still sell like hotcakes. I didn't need an incentive to buy my boat but I wouldn't have minded a discount!

 

[BlkGS]

Tax credits up to $7,500 for qualifying incomes. Just another government bribe that I’ll pay for, but never be able to receive. You don’t have to give people $7,500 to take something, if it’s so incredibly desirable. We didn’t need to be bribed to buy our boats, did we?

I've long said the tax credit should be limited to a purchase price of $30k or less (maybe 35, but definitely not 40), not including trade in, but including incentives and dealer fees. So if the dealer jacks up the car price, the tax breaks falls off and they lose the sale. This would encourage people buying less expensive cars to get the money, not people with 6 figure plus incomes buying luxury cars. Encourage people buying corolla, rav4s, and mid range cry type cars to go ev, not people who could already afford it.

 

[BlkGS]

Well, Tesla lost the 7500 incentive a long time ago and they still sell like hotcakes. I didn't need an incentive to buy my boat but I wouldn't have minded a discount!

Tesla is propped up by the stupid carbon credit market the Obama administration created for them. It's a tax on people buying vehicles to fund Tesla realistically. I'd like to see a future EPA administration erase it and require all carbon credits purchased to be repaid in full, as the whole thing was an anti competitive nightmare of government favoritism.

 

[Julian]

You're a smart guy Julian, we BOTH know the million mile car isn't going to happen. Powertrains aren't what limit vehicle life. It's features, safety, and being wrecked. It's the AC going out and a shop charging 4k to replace it on a car worth 10k. It's the car that got t boned by a distracted or bad driver. Its the integrated center screen that stopped responding and is 8k plus has to be vin coded by the dealer. People don't scrap cars because the motor failed anymore, they scrap it because it runs but has dents and the paint is trashed and the ac doesn't work so nobody wants to buy it.

It will be no different for an EV. There's no shortage of ICE engines that could run a million miles if the cars around them survived. But the automakers (and for damn sure the EV industry) knows that's not good for their business, so they do things to ensure you upgrade. New features, increased performance, better materials, and obsoleted repair parts, out of date software... these are all things that get you to upgrade out of your perfectly good car, and it's only going to get worse as time goes on.

This isn't for individual ownership, this would be for fleet ownership on a vehicle that is used all the time. As in it hits a million miles in a few years because it is always on the road. All the manufacturers are looking at this as a very real business model. Will be interesting to see how/if it plays out. I'm sure it will in cities.

 

[BlkGS]

This isn't for individual ownership, this would be for fleet ownership on a vehicle that is used all the time. As in it hits a million miles in a few years because it is always on the road. All the manufacturers are looking at this as a very real business model. Will be interesting to see how/if it plays out. I'm sure it will in cities.

For something like a school or mass transit bus, I think it makes a ton of sense. Even airport taxis or ambulances, tons of sense. I DONT think it makes sense for something like a mail.of package delivery vehicle. But something that has either consistent stopping locations like a transit bus (that could automatically charge while loading/unloading), or something like a school bus that has a lot of downtime and could charge during that time, it makes sense. Something that has to drive all day to lots of different stops like a delivery truck, doesn't make sense IMO.

I'm curious what the original delivery mail trucks have for mileage on them now. I bet it's well over a million miles on some of them.

 

[Mesa50]

Well, Tesla lost the 7500 incentive a long time ago and they still sell like hotcakes. I didn't need an incentive to buy my boat but I wouldn't have minded a discount!

I don’t dislike electric vehicles. I dislike the manner in which they are being marketed by those pushing them. They aren’t going to make things greener with our current energy supplies. The US electricity production is currently 80% produced by sources other than green energy = (wind, hydro, solar). Unless you receive power from green energy production, all owning an ev does, is switch the carbon emissions from your car, to the power plant. The more people who get EV’s, the greater the carbon output will be from the power plant. And I bet the emissions from a modern gasoline powered auto, are far less than the smoke stacks at a power plant. I wouldn’t mind having the power plant fill the sky with soot, if it were struggling to charge a Tesla Plaid in my garage though. I have a love hate thing with EV’s. I love the idea of them, but hate the political exaggeration of their benefits. I did switch all of my yard tools to electric. At least with them, I’m only a few steps away from a charger.

 

[BlkGS]

I tried electric lawn tools twice. First was an electric leaf blower, which was a colossal failure that could not actually blow leaves. That was replaced by a 2 stroke that did great, until we moved to FL and it stopped working.

Try 2 was an electric lawnmower when we moved here and I had a much smaller lawn. I figured for under a .25 acre lawn it'd be no problem, I was wrong. On 1 of 2 batteries, I could get about 20% of the lawn done, this on a Mac daddy one without self propel to save energy. I'd have been 250 plus in batteries to get it halfway and have to charge them. I do think I could have gotten it down to 4 batteries of work, but this tough ass florida grass just made short work of that battery.

I did recently buy a m18 leaf blower to use to dry the expedition and I guess blow grass after cutting. It works fine for the grass clippings, but it can't dry the expedition before the battery is drained or in thermal protect. That's the bigger 4 or 5 Ah batteries too. But wince it shares batteries with the impact gun, it's sort of a moot point.

 

[Mesa50]

I use Craftsman 60v blower, hedge trimmer, and weed wacker. The blower has the shortest run time, about 10 min on full power. I love all of them though. I have about a half acre lot, and they do a great job.