Batteries <electric vehicle battery>

[Julian]

For something like a school or mass transit bus, I think it makes a ton of sense. Even airport taxis or ambulances, tons of sense. I DONT think it makes sense for something like a mail.of package delivery vehicle. But something that has either consistent stopping locations like a transit bus (that could automatically charge while loading/unloading), or something like a school bus that has a lot of downtime and could charge during that time, it makes sense. Something that has to drive all day to lots of different stops like a delivery truck, doesn't make sense IMO.

I'm curious what the original delivery mail trucks have for mileage on them now. I bet it's well over a million miles on some of them.

I'm talking about self driving fleets of vehicles that you'd pay a monthly fee to use and summon a car when you need it. Never own a vehicle because it's cheaper than owning. Many new Yorkers don't own today. This would make Ubers cheaper to run (no driver costs) so it's really just a matter of time. I'll take the self driving Uber if it's significantly less and reliable.

This is what will drive either faster charging, or quick battery swapping.

Yes, other fleets are already running self driving semi trucks...they are a few years away from the becoming common on the roads.

Home - Kodiak Self-Driving Trucks

Kodiak has built the most advanced autonomous technology for long-haul trucking. We're currently moving goods in Texas and Oklahoma using our self-driving fleet.

kodiak.ai

Self-driving semis may revolutionize trucking while eliminating hundreds of thousands of jobs

“I think the most surprising thing there was that everyone we spoke to basically said ‘yeah, this can be done.’”

thehill.com

https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/the-self-driving-big-rigs-that-youll-see-on-the-highway-soon/

 

[BlkGS]

I'm talking about self driving fleets of vehicles that you'd pay a monthly fee to use and summon a car when you need it. Never own a vehicle because it's cheaper than owning. Many new Yorkers don't own today. This would make Ubers cheaper to run (no driver costs) so it's really just a matter of time. I'll take the self driving Uber if it's significantly less and reliable.

This is what will drive either faster charging, or quick battery swapping.

Yes, other fleets are already running self driving semi trucks...they are a few years away from the becoming common on the roads.

Home - Kodiak Self-Driving Trucks

Kodiak has built the most advanced autonomous technology for long-haul trucking. We're currently moving goods in Texas and Oklahoma using our self-driving fleet.

kodiak.ai

Self-driving semis may revolutionize trucking while eliminating hundreds of thousands of jobs

“I think the most surprising thing there was that everyone we spoke to basically said ‘yeah, this can be done.’”

thehill.com

https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/the-self-driving-big-rigs-that-youll-see-on-the-highway-soon/

That sounds like a totalitarian hell. Just imagine, you get labeled an enemy of the state... or corporation... and you get blocked from transportation now.

While I get that some people will try to have that be the future, I will resist that for as long as I live.

 

[Nakk]

Wow, too many misconceptions and erroneous/outdated information on here to even try to make a rebuttal. Let's just say that there is a reason that all of the "facts" presented are presented without supporting evidence. It's also funny how people who have never even driven an EV--let alone owned one--seem to think they have a good idea about the ins and outs of driving an EV. No offense to anyone intended, I'm just pointing out the obvious. If people want to hang on to false information, that's fine and dandy with me.

First off, let me say I agree completely that we should not be forcing anyone to buy a specific type of vehicle. Second, EV tax credits have nothing to do with promoting EV adoption--that's happening anyway--nor does it have anything to do with being "green." It has everything to do with bailing out legacy automakers who pay massive bribes--oops, I mean make campaign contributions and pay speaking fees--to politicians. Most of said automakers will go out of business without this bailout money.

EVs need no incentive because they are just plain better vehicles for 99% of buyers. Can they do everything? Obviously not, neither can any ICE truck. I keep my '92 Blazer for towing, but other than that I can't imagine ever driving a POS ICE car again. Urban use only? LMFAO. My EV can haul lumber, haul all of my gear down to the marina, drive 300 miles before I need to stop for a few minutes to charge, NEVER needs to charge anywhere but home except on very long trips, costs a tiny fraction to operate compared to even an economy ICE car, can beat a Turbo 911 around a race track, can blow the doors off a Hellcat on the street, stays nice and cool all day long parked in 116 degree heat--in the sun no less--while I'm out on the river, can drive for me while I eat, will outlast 99% of ICE vehicles many times over, never wakes my neighbors when I leave early in the morning or get home late at night, etc, etc, etc. You see what I mean. Better. There is a reason why 98% of consumers who test drive an EV decide they want an EV. It is the rare person indeed who willingly goes back to ICE after owning a good EV.

All of that said, yes there a few isolated use cases where an ICE vehicle is still required. (This is changing as we speak though.) Someone that drives into the boonies for a living. Long distance towing. Racing more than a couple of laps at the track. That's about it. For just about every other use case, a good EV is just plain better. Cheaper in the long run. Far more convenient for 99% of use cases. More reliable. Safer. Not stinky.

I'm a car guy. I've done frame up restorations and mods. I've left more blood on suspension parts, brakes and drive train than most folks have in their body. I know cars pretty good. I can't tell you how nice it is to have a car that just doesn't need but a fraction of the repairs and maintenance of horse and buggies--oops, I mean fossil fuel powered cars. Same thing really.

I will dispel just one myth presented; the claim that since our electrical grid is heavily into fossil fuels EVs are no greener than ICE. You need to run the numbers, because that just ain't so. Even if my Performance Model Y charged exclusively on power generated by coal, the emissions produced would still be slightly less than that of a Prius. Not bad for a car that will tow 3500 pounds, haul 5 adults in comfort, haul all of my kiteboarding gear and can blow the doors off of just about 99.9% of the cars on the road. Additionally, you need to consider that as the electrical grid becomes greener, current EVs will become greener right along with it. ICE vehicles will continue to pollute for their entire, short, lifespan.

I don't care what you drive, other than I feel sorry for you if you're stuck with an ICE rig. I do not believe in mandates or incentives. Let the free market rule. EV mandates and incentives have nothing to do with being green, and everything to do with corrupt politicians. For proof of that I'll offer Joe Biden's EV summit at the White House. Tesla is by far, I mean leaps and bounds by far, the EV leader. Arguably, desirable EVs would not exist without Tesla. Joe Biden wouldn't even say the word "Tesla." Instead he claimed GM was the EV leader--after GM produced dozens, yes dozens--of EVs that quarter. Tesla produced slightly more than that, LOL. SO why was Tesla frozen out? Let's see, how much money has Tesla given to Joe Biden or the DNC? Zero, nada, zilch. How much money has GM and the UAW given to Joe? LOL. If Joe or the DNC actually cared about the environment and actually believed in EVs, Tesla would have been front and center at that summit.

 

[Coult45]

Wow, too many misconceptions and erroneous/outdated information on here to even try to make a rebuttal. Let's just say that there is a reason that all of the "facts" presented are presented without supporting evidence. It's also funny how people who have never even driven an EV--let alone owned one--seem to think they have a good idea about the ins and outs of driving an EV. No offense to anyone intended, I'm just pointing out the obvious. If people want to hang on to false information, that's fine and dandy with me.

First off, let me say I agree completely that we should not be forcing anyone to buy a specific type of vehicle. Second, EV tax credits have nothing to do with promoting EV adoption--that's happening anyway--nor does it have anything to do with being "green." It has everything to do with bailing out legacy automakers who pay massive bribes--oops, I mean make campaign contributions and pay speaking fees--to politicians. Most of said automakers will go out of business without this bailout money.

EVs need no incentive because they are just plain better vehicles for 99% of buyers. Can they do everything? Obviously not, neither can any ICE truck. I keep my '92 Blazer for towing, but other than that I can't imagine ever driving a POS ICE car again. Urban use only? LMFAO. My EV can haul lumber, haul all of my gear down to the marina, drive 300 miles before I need to stop for a few minutes to charge, NEVER needs to charge anywhere but home except on very long trips, costs a tiny fraction to operate compared to even an economy ICE car, can beat a Turbo 911 around a race track, can blow the doors off a Hellcat on the street, stays nice and cool all day long parked in 116 degree heat--in the sun no less--while I'm out on the river, can drive for me while I eat, will outlast 99% of ICE vehicles many times over, never wakes my neighbors when I leave early in the morning or get home late at night, etc, etc, etc. You see what I mean. Better. There is a reason why 98% of consumers who test drive an EV decide they want an EV. It is the rare person indeed who willingly goes back to ICE after owning a good EV.

All of that said, yes there a few isolated use cases where an ICE vehicle is still required. (This is changing as we speak though.) Someone that drives into the boonies for a living. Long distance towing. Racing more than a couple of laps at the track. That's about it. For just about every other use case, a good EV is just plain better. Cheaper in the long run. Far more convenient for 99% of use cases. More reliable. Safer. Not stinky.

I'm a car guy. I've done frame up restorations and mods. I've left more blood on suspension parts, brakes and drive train than most folks have in their body. I know cars pretty good. I can't tell you how nice it is to have a car that just doesn't need but a fraction of the repairs and maintenance of horse and buggies--oops, I mean fossil fuel powered cars. Same thing really.

I will dispel just one myth presented; the claim that since our electrical grid is heavily into fossil fuels EVs are no greener than ICE. You need to run the numbers, because that just ain't so. Even if my Performance Model Y charged exclusively on power generated by coal, the emissions produced would still be slightly less than that of a Prius. Not bad for a car that will tow 3500 pounds, haul 5 adults in comfort, haul all of my kiteboarding gear and can blow the doors off of just about 99.9% of the cars on the road. Additionally, you need to consider that as the electrical grid becomes greener, current EVs will become greener right along with it. ICE vehicles will continue to pollute for their entire, short, lifespan.

I don't care what you drive, other than I feel sorry for you if you're stuck with an ICE rig. I do not believe in mandates or incentives. Let the free market rule. EV mandates and incentives have nothing to do with being green, and everything to do with corrupt politicians. For proof of that I'll offer Joe Biden's EV summit at the White House. Tesla is by far, I mean leaps and bounds by far, the EV leader. Arguably, desirable EVs would not exist without Tesla. Joe Biden wouldn't even say the word "Tesla." Instead he claimed GM was the EV leader--after GM produced dozens, yes dozens--of EVs that quarter. Tesla produced slightly more than that, LOL. SO why was Tesla frozen out? Let's see, how much money has Tesla given to Joe Biden or the DNC? Zero, nada, zilch. How much money has GM and the UAW given to Joe? LOL. If Joe or the DNC actually cared about the environment and actually believed in EVs, Tesla would have been front and center at that summit.

One MAJOR disagreement with you...I feel like an a-hole every time I back out of the garage early in the morning and that beep beep beep echos through the neighborhood. And no, my wife will definitely NOT back into the garage just so we can be quiet while occasionally leaving early.

 

[BlkGS]

I've yet to see an EV that can do track days. I've been there when they tried. I watched a model s dual motor get spanked by a grand marquis around Carolina Motorsports Park, and have to charge after every 20 minute session. For hours. And miss at least the next session. Guy said his braking was terrible and if he wasnt on the throttle it braked on its own. Dude came back with his 911 the next day.

Also f not waking my neighbors up if I leave early. If I have to be up, so do they. Stupid retired people.

 

[Nakk]

One MAJOR disagreement with you...I feel like an a-hole every time I back out of the garage early in the morning and that beep beep beep echos through the neighborhood. And no, my wife will definitely NOT back into the garage just so we can be quiet while occasionally leaving early.

My Y doesn't have the "pedestrian awareness" speaker. Someone vandalized our Model 3! They stole our PA speaker, I am so sad! I'd love to replace that speaker but I'm just too old and infirm.

 

[Nakk]

I've yet to see an EV that can do track days. I've been there when they tried. I watched a model s dual motor get spanked by a grand marquis around Carolina Motorsports Park, and have to charge after every 20 minute session. For hours. And miss at least the next session. Guy said his braking was terrible and if he wasnt on the throttle it braked on its own. Dude came back with his 911 the next day.

Also f not waking my neighbors up if I leave early. If I have to be up, so do they. Stupid retired people.

Agreed on the track day; that's why I specified "a lap or two." With the right brake upgrades that can be extended a bit, but ICE still rules on track days for sure.

I'm so happy to live in a neighborhood where we all like and respect each other. That just seems to be rare these days. It also pays huge dividends in neighborhood safety.

 

[Mesa50]

That sounds like a totalitarian hell. Just imagine, you get labeled an enemy of the state... or corporation... and you get blocked from transportation now.

While I get that some people will try to have that be the future, I will resist that for as long as I live.

And someone said I needed a tinfoil hat for suggesting there are people who are advocating for communal rental vehicles, and zero personal vehicles. I’ll wear the hat, and have “I told you so” printed on the front. We have two competing philosophies in America today. One very authoritarian side says “No one needs a _______” (fill in the blank). The other side says “Everyone has the opportunity to earn a ________”……. The former group always thinks they are smarter than everyone around them, and they can run your life better than you can. Their ideas are so great, that everyone should be forced into compliance. Prohibition of anything rarely works. Especially when attempting prohibition of items or procedures that were in use for long periods. Prohibition of alcohol, turned guys who just wanted a beer after work into violent criminals. That prohibition created other laws specifically designed for fighting the evil whiskey runners, that are still needlessly in affect today. Just like prohibition, sometimes society gets things wrong, and then comes back to their senses. Using unprovable theories to mandate prohibition of things, which will eventually include part, or all of our freedoms, may end up irreversible. I don’t think many will like the future they are advocating for.

 

[Coult45]

I've yet to see an EV that can do track days. I've been there when they tried. I watched a model s dual motor get spanked by a grand marquis around Carolina Motorsports Park, and have to charge after every 20 minute session. For hours. And miss at least the next session. Guy said his braking was terrible and if he wasnt on the throttle it braked on its own. Dude came back with his 911 the next day.

Also f not waking my neighbors up if I leave early. If I have to be up, so do they. Stupid retired people.

Retired people are the WORST. I can't wait to join them January 1st.

 

[tabbibus]

I've yet to see an EV that can do track days. I've been there when they tried. I watched a model s dual motor get spanked by a grand marquis around Carolina Motorsports Park, and have to charge after every 20 minute session. For hours. And miss at least the next session. Guy said his braking was terrible and if he wasnt on the throttle it braked on its own. Dude came back with his 911 the next day.

Also f not waking my neighbors up if I leave early. If I have to be up, so do they. Stupid retired people.

There's a simple toggle in the settings that turns off regenerative breaking

 

[Julian]

And someone said I needed a tinfoil hat for suggesting there are people who are advocating for communal rental vehicles, and zero personal vehicles. I’ll wear the hat, and have “I told you so” printed on the front. We have two competing philosophies in America today. One very authoritarian side says “No one needs a _______” (fill in the blank). The other side says “Everyone has the opportunity to earn a ________”……. The former group always thinks they are smarter than everyone around them, and they can run your life better than you can. Their ideas are so great, that everyone should be forced into compliance. Prohibition of anything rarely works. Especially when attempting prohibition of items or procedures that were in use for long periods. Prohibition of alcohol, turned guys who just wanted a beer after work into violent criminals. That prohibition created other laws specifically designed for fighting the evil whiskey runners, that are still needlessly in affect today. Just like prohibition, sometimes society gets things wrong, and then comes back to their senses. Using unprovable theories to mandate prohibition of things, which will eventually include part, or all of our freedoms, may end up irreversible. I don’t think many will like the future they are advocating for.

Who says anyone is forcing a switch to fleet use vehicles. This will, or won't happen, based on supply and demand. If you don't want to use it, totally your choice. Buy your car, use it for a tiny fraction of the day and be happy. Others are predicted to use it heavily.

 

[Mesa50]

Retired people are the WORST. I can't wait to join them January 1st.

Who says anyone is forcing a switch to fleet use vehicles. This will, or won't happen, based on supply and demand. If you don't want to use it, totally your choice. Buy your car, use it for a tiny fraction of the day and be happy. Others are predicted to use it heavily.

It’s not a bad idea for those who live in urban/suburban areas. Storing/parking a vehicle isn’t practical for many.

 

[Julian]

It’s not a bad idea for those who live in urban/suburban areas. Storing/parking a vehicle isn’t practical for many.

Given that 83% of Americans live in urban areas....it will likely work very well for a huge percentage of the population.

 

[BlkGS]

There's a simple toggle in the settings that turns off regenerative breaking

Story time part 2. This guy couldn't drive for shit. He came out day 2 in a 991 S Porsche and I embarrassed him all.up and down CMP in my c6 Grand Sport. Regen brake off wouldn't have mattered, he had no car control and terrible lines. Honestly, I could have outrun him around a track in our expedition

 

[BlkGS]

Given that 83% of Americans live in urban areas....it will likely work very well for a huge percentage of the population.

Depends how you define urban. Where I live is definitely considered urban/suburban, nut it's VERY different fro.a big city. Where I lived in NC was considered urban. But it was a small town an hour from.the big city nearby. So those stats can be a little misleading.

 

[Julian]

Depends how you define urban. Where I live is definitely considered urban/suburban, nut it's VERY different fro.a big city. Where I lived in NC was considered urban. But it was a small town an hour from.the big city nearby. So those stats can be a little misleading.

Even if it's off by 50%, it's still a massive population for a sales target.

 

[BlkGS]

Even if it's off by 50%, it's still a massive population for a sales target.

Sure, because its the largest possible net. You then gotta divide out people who drive or tow long trips, people who don't buy new cars, people who can't easily charge due to not having a garage, people who whatever whatever..

It's like saying that since everyone has feet the target market is 100% of people for luxury shoes.

 

[Julian]

Sure, because its the largest possible net. You then gotta divide out people who drive or tow long trips, people who don't buy new cars, people who can't easily charge due to not having a garage, people who whatever whatever..

It's like saying that since everyone has feet the target market is 100% of people for luxury shoes.

Ok....whatever.... all the major car makers have it wrong. It'll never work.

 

[BlkGS]

Ok....whatever.... all the major car makers have it wrong. It'll never work.

Not saying that, just that long term EVs won't be a 100% switch... probably not even a 50% switch. I could see the EV market capping at like 30% to 40% of the total market. Certainly not insignificant, but I don't see it becoming a complete changeover like many people think it will/should be.

All major car makers having it wrong... wouldn't surprise me. Personally I think the whole industry is spiraling towards consolidation. I wouldn't be surprised to see Ford and GM merge, if not with each other, with a large multinational brand. It's not a huge stretch to imagine Ford and VW, or GM and Toyota becoming one company to be honest. Overspending a few billion on a market that materializes much smaller than expectations would be just the sort of thing to kick off this sort of consolidation that would work well for both parties. It certainly wouldn't be the first time the whole industry got caught completely out of position...

 

[Nakk]

Not saying that, just that long term EVs won't be a 100% switch... probably not even a 50% switch. I could see the EV market capping at like 30% to 40% of the total market. Certainly not insignificant, but I don't see it becoming a complete changeover like many people think it will/should be.

Well, TBH neither your opinion nor mine matter even a little bit. But since we're sharing... Considering that US and world wide demand for ICE vehicles is tanking, and that EV sales are currently only limited by production capacity--and growing exponentially-- I can't see what data you're looking at to form your opinion. EV sales are growing exponentially because EVs are better, faster, cheaper to operate, cheaper in the long run, easier to drive, more fun to drive, more reliable, longer lasting; you know, just plain better for 98% of the population. ICE's only advantage for 98% of the population is lower upfront cost. For a smaller subset of the population towing is another advantage for ICE. For a smaller subset yet the last ICE advantage is refueling in low density population areas. As those three advantages disappear in the coming years it will get increasingly difficult to sell any ICE cars at all, let alone enough to justify continued production. This is the free market at work. Build a better mousetrap and the world will beat a path to your door. There aren't many horse and buggy dealers around any more...