The Vaccine

[Bizywk]

@Bizywk, if you share information that you learn is incorrect why continue to argue such misinformation?

All of our understanding of this virus and pandemic should evolve over time as more is learned. Mine certainly has. It would be unreasonable not to learn.

What information are you referring to?

I completely agree with your second point, but we're not going to learn by discounting and smearing people with different viewpoints as this thread does.

 

[Julian]

Can you explain the northern province of India that now claims they are covid-free (population of 241 million). What did they use? Ivermectin and hydroxychloroquine…..

Have you been to India? I've probably spent a year there over the trips I've been on.

These and many Indian states have atrocious health data collection standards and frankly their equal "class" support is laughable. All my employees were vaccinated nearly immediately...because they are "rich". My staff are laughing at the government statistics....its still bad there....but not for the wealthy, yet as you say they are declaring victory in some states. Testing of the poor is non existent. So the Indian statistics are really only representative of the wealthy class. They have peaked there (supposedly), but the reality is they have such poor testing that it is anyone's best guess where they stand.

The vaccines continue to work really well (as well as expected). Not sure why you think this isn't the case- did you somehow develop the expectation that they were 100% effective?

We are also now aware that boosters will be needed. And each drug is being treated individually. There is no "grouping" of mRNA vaccines together (except perhaps by the media and for high level discussion purposes). Each drug is having to submit to the FDA, their test data on boosters.

India just approved the first DNA covid vaccine. This is big news as it is much easier to make and store. Doesn't look like it is as effective as the mRNA vaccines...but it is an important step towards faster easier mass production.

My brother's kitchen manager's wife died last week while on a ventilator. They were getting ready to take her off the vent and move her to hospice. She wasn't vaxed in her 30-40s. She and her husband think they had covid before and didn't get vaxed as they figured they had antibodies already.

 

[Bluewater272]

Can you explain the northern province of India that now claims they are covid-free (population of 241 million). What did they use? Ivermectin and hydroxychloroquine…..

Did you just make this up?

Japan?? Their health minister just endorsed Ivermectin…….are these other Heath ministers crackpots???

• The Tokyo Medical Association is a professional organization that’s not affiliated with the government, and can only make policy recommendations.
• Ivermectin is not listed by the Japanese government as an approved medication to treat COVID-19.

 

[Evil Sports]

@Bruce
LISTEN!!!!!

 

[ripler]

I don't want to assume your meaning. Are you suggesting that no one use the internet to gather information or that no one should ever dare question any other skill set?

Wasn't sharing information the stated purpose of this boating internet thread?

I'm not saying that no one use the internet to gather information and sharing legit info. My point is that we are lucky to have guys on here with real world experience with treating covid patients and how vaccines are developed and there are people arguing with them who's only experience is a Google search.

 

[crazy4life]

Did you just make this up?

Pretty sure he is talking about Utter Pradesh in India.

Uttar Pradesh government says early use of Ivermectin helped to keep positivity, deaths low

Claiming that timely introduction of Ivermectin since the first wave has helped the state maintain a relatively low positivity rate despite in its high population density.

www.google.com

 

[Bruce]

Pretty sure he is talking about Utter Pradesh in India.

CoVID reporting is thought to be quite limited in India regardless at 2% the ratio of deaths to cases looks to be high in Utter Pradesh compared to other regions. Certainly not anything to brag about.

 

[Enduro900]

Did you just make this up?

• The Tokyo Medical Association is a professional organization that’s not affiliated with the government, and can only make policy recommendations.
• Ivermectin is not listed by the Japanese government as an approved medication to treat COVID-19.

Yeah, that’s what I do all day….make up stuff and put it on the boat forums…..

 

[Enduro900]

Have you been to India? I've probably spent a year there over the trips I've been on.

These and many Indian states have atrocious health data collection standards and frankly their equal "class" support is laughable. All my employees were vaccinated nearly immediately...because they are "rich". My staff are laughing at the government statistics....its still bad there....but not for the wealthy, yet as you say they are declaring victory in some states. Testing of the poor is non existent. So the Indian statistics are really only representative of the wealthy class. They have peaked there (supposedly), but the reality is they have such poor testing that it is anyone's best guess where they stand.

The vaccines continue to work really well (as well as expected). Not sure why you think this isn't the case- did you somehow develop the expectation that they were 100% effective?

We are also now aware that boosters will be needed. And each drug is being treated individually. There is no "grouping" of mRNA vaccines together (except perhaps by the media and for high level discussion purposes). Each drug is having to submit to the FDA, their test data on boosters.

India just approved the first DNA covid vaccine. This is big news as it is much easier to make and store. Doesn't look like it is as effective as the mRNA vaccines...but it is an important step towards faster easier mass production.

My brother's kitchen manager's wife died last week while on a ventilator. They were getting ready to take her off the vent and move her to hospice. She wasn't vaxed in her 30-40s. She and her husband think they had covid before and didn't get vaxed as they figured they had antibodies already.

My beef isn’t with the vaccines not working at all…..my beef is this whole situation has become nothing but a constant moving of the goal posts, by people that are supposed to be experts yet some of the stuff they do or say (or both) defies common sense.

As I stated earlier, if the vaccines actually kept us from getting Covid there would be a stronger argument (and I’m not taking about 100%, but no one can argue the “breakthrough” cases are ridiculously common right now, so now they say get vaccinated so when you catch it, you will have a milder case?

Lest us not forget these same people first told us not to wear masks as they wont do anything to stop the spread, then told us everyone has to wear a mask or they could be charged with attempted murder (or so it seemed), to then get vaccinated to save yourself and stop the spread, to now you are still likely to get it even if vaccinated, and you can still spread it even if vacinated, which means it is still spreading and vaccinations won’t do anything about the spread.

And no, I’ve never been to India. I have been to china multiple times, but not in the last 10 years.

 

[Enduro900]

Alright folks, day 7 for me in the books. Short day for me today.

1 more death. Unvaccinated. No new covid admits since yesterday. Here's praying that we see a decrease in ICU admissions. The sad reality is that for now it won't come down. We are the trickle down last line. First ED visits come down, then hospitalizations, then finally ICU. Right now there are many patients in the floor fighting for their lives trying to not end up being our guests, so even if we don't admit 1 more covid patients, the unit will still see a lot more in the next week or two.

Stay safe lads. Go boating.
Be kind.

Tab, can you speak to why the “media” is misleading on Ivermectin? And I mean this genuinely, unless the fact is Ivermectin was never prescribed here to humans before 2020?

This is the kind of thing that makes people put tinfoil on their heads….calling something a “horse dewormer”

Maybe My callousness comes from I’ve had to be out in the middle of all this since the beginning (not by choice, it was either that or go bankrupt), when at first it was like possibly risking my life and/or bringing something home that could kill my son (severe allergies). And from there we’ve had a ton of people claiming to know, and speaking in absolutes, and then they turn out to be wrong.

Not to mention my mom is one of the people frozen by the fear of catching (thank you non-stop fear mongering media!!) this to the extent she has missed multiple family functions over tha last year and a half, and we’ve only seen her a coupe of times from a distance.

 

[Julian]

My beef isn’t with the vaccines not working at all…..my beef is this whole situation has become nothing but a constant moving of the goal posts, by people that are supposed to be experts yet some of the stuff they do or say (or both) defies common sense.

As I stated earlier, if the vaccines actually kept us from getting Covid there would be a stronger argument (and I’m not taking about 100%, but no one can argue the “breakthrough” cases are ridiculously common right now, so now they say get vaccinated so when you catch it, you will have a milder case?

Lest us not forget these same people first told us not to wear masks as they wont do anything to stop the spread, then told us everyone has to wear a mask or they could be charged with attempted murder (or so it seemed), to then get vaccinated to save yourself and stop the spread, to now you are still likely to get it even if vaccinated, and you can still spread it even if vacinated, which means it is still spreading and vaccinations won’t do anything about the spread.

And no, I’ve never been to India. I have been to china multiple times, but not in the last 10 years.

I don't find any issues with the things you are concerned about. The mask one...come on....its been explained over and over.

This article has great info on breakthrough cases. Here is a good quote from it:

“Preventing infection (is) a really nice added benefit of the vaccines, but that’s not their primary purpose,” said Emily Gurley, an infectious-disease epidemiologist at the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health. “The primary purpose of vaccinations is to prevent severe disease and death should you be infected. We lose sight of that sometimes, particularly in public discussions.”​

​

Where you see issues, I see perfectly normal and explainable stuff. If you want to see issues you will. I guess the opposite is also true, but I'm looking at the data and I'm asking the experts for their read on changes as the happen.

The FDA says no need for boosters for the majority of us (now), but I expect that later they will tell us to get them. I expect that will confuse people too....but its perfectly understandable.

 

[Bruce]

@Enduro900, please repeat this until you understand it, vaccines do not prevent the contraction of a virus they train the body to fight the virus after contracting it. Vaccines are not a shield.

Your expectations of the vaccines are unreasonable. The SARS-CoV-2 vaccines are working very well to reduce symptomatic infection, hospitalization and death among the vaccinated. Most vaccinated persons will not show symptoms or become contagious after contracting SARS-CoV-2 however weakened immune systems and large exposures allow for a minority to experience symptomatic and contagious breakthrough infections.

 

[Enduro900]

@Enduro900, Robert Malone is a doctor who did some mRNA work with frogs in the late eighties more than a decade after the potential of mRNA began being studied.

Katalin Kariko was among the scientists studying mRNA at the time and has continued to do so for nearly fifty years now being instrumental at BioNTech who developed the Pfizer vaccine After About 50 Years, the mRNA Revolution is Here | BioSpace

Some of the other scientists involved are mentioned in this article from Nature The tangled history of mRNA vaccines

Malone himself told the Associated Press “I did not develop mRNA COVID vaccines and I never was involved in developing a human mRNA vaccine,” Video clip of Ohio school board meeting spreads vaccine falsehoods

Unfortunately Dr. Malone has become known for false statements that are harmful to efforts to combat this pandemic.

COVID-19 vaccines are not ‘cytotoxic’

Posts are sharing the false statement that the spike protein in COVID-19 vaccines is cytotoxic, suggesting that it kills or damages cells. There is no evidence to support this.

www.reuters.com

Researcher Distorts Facts on COVID-19 Vaccine Approval, Liability - FactCheck.org

The Pfizer/BioNTech COVID-19 vaccine was fully approved by the Food and Drug Administration, though an emergency use authorization also remains in place. Dr. Robert Malone misleadingly said Americans are being offered the shot only under the latter and that it carried different liability...

www.factcheck.org

Thank you for sharing this: My takeaway from his one interview I watched was his concern about the protein spikes that have been confirmed in some people, which he said could trigger both short and long-term affects.

I do have concerns about why the push for vaccinating the young, since the vaccination doesnt stop the spread, and younger people (25 and under) have very little risk of death or serious long-term affects.

But yes maybe he is a crackpot, I have not idea but certainly this questions his expertise…..

 

[Bluewater272]

Yeah, that’s what I do all day….make up stuff and put it on the boat forums…..

Sure seems like it. Most of the anti-vax 'facts', its pretty easy to find out which crackpot naturalist website it originated from, like your proclamation that the health minister of Japan approved ivermectin for treatment. Couldn't find anything about this mystery state in India.

 

[Julian]

Tab, can you speak to why the “media” is misleading on Ivermectin? And I mean this genuinely, unless the fact is Ivermectin was never prescribed here to humans before 2020?

This is the kind of thing that makes people put tinfoil on their heads….calling something a “horse dewormer”

Maybe My callousness comes from I’ve had to be out in the middle of all this since the beginning (not by choice, it was either that or go bankrupt), when at first it was like possibly risking my life and/or bringing something home that could kill my son (severe allergies). And from there we’ve had a ton of people claiming to know, and speaking in absolutes, and then they turn out to be wrong.

Not to mention my mom is one of the people frozen by the fear of catching (thank you non-stop fear mongering media!!) this to the extent she has missed multiple family functions over tha last year and a half, and we’ve only seen her a coupe of times from a distance.

The is no reliable data to show ivermectin does anything. That is why the FDA can't recommend it. It is that simple. They work on DATA. This is also why the NIH says they can't say one way or another if it does anything....there is no reliable data.

Does that mean it is useless. No. It just means there is no reliable data for them to base a recommendation on.

The biggest study had only 300 patients...and it was pulled due to ethical concerns. 300 is TINY!!!

The vaccines had 30,000 in their studies! And people don't believe their data! But want to believe 3rd world studies with 200 people??? I just don't get it.

I'll be delighted if it works...but until there is a major study in a first world country...its not going to be approved....and shouldn't be!

 

[Julian]

Couldn't find anything about this mystery state in India.

Actually the "data" from Uttar Pradesh is interesting, but only if you think they have wide spread testing going on, but they don't. They ARE testing the rich vaccinated people. The rest of the "untouchables" are just that....sad but true.

 

[Crob83]

Here's my take on, if anybody cares. Get vaccinated, don't get vaccinated, it's your choice. Neither side is going to convice the other to do or don't, people believe or don't believe what they choose. This is America, and if you don't want the vaccine, then so fucking be it. I have had the Delta variant, and also work for a company who makes antibodies. And I wouldn't have gotten the vaccine to be honest, unless it was a condition of employment. I understand the stance of @tabbibus being a front line worker, and others who feel the same way and are passionate about it. But I also understand the other side of it as well. It's a personal choice, or at least should be, end of story IMHO

 

[Enduro900]

I don't find any issues with the things you are concerned about. The mask one...come on....its been explained over and over.

This article has great info on breakthrough cases. Here is a good quote from it:

“Preventing infection (is) a really nice added benefit of the vaccines, but that’s not their primary purpose,” said Emily Gurley, an infectious-disease epidemiologist at the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health. “The primary purpose of vaccinations is to prevent severe disease and death should you be infected. We lose sight of that sometimes, particularly in public discussions.”​

​

Where you see issues, I see perfectly normal and explainable stuff. If you want to see issues you will. I guess the opposite is also true, but I'm looking at the data and I'm asking the experts for their read on changes as the happen.

The FDA says no need for boosters for the majority of us (now), but I expect that later they will tell us to get them. I expect that will confuse people too....but its perfectly understandable.

The mask one: Just pointing out the road we’ve been on. Actually Asian’s wear masks all the time (which I’m sure you experienced in India pre-covid), as a Curtesy when they are sick and out in public (which I learned about from my travels there multiple times). I’m just pointing out that we were told NOT to wear one, then we were told we MUST wear one whether sick or not.

I appreciate your quote about vaccines and I agree with it. Its just not what we were told, so yes some people are burned out from all the “chicken little”, fear-mongering, and inaccuracy.

The irony is most of the shame-lecturing from the media to the unvaccinated is now untrue….anyone whether vaccinated or not vaccinated can carry and spread covid..

 

[Enduro900]

Sure seems like it. Most of the anti-vax 'facts', its pretty easy to find out which crackpot naturalist website it originated from, like your proclamation that the health minister of Japan approved ivermectin for treatment. Couldn't find anything about this mystery state in India.

Just tell your doctor to give you another shot…let them know you can have my doses…….

btw, so far I am winning…Covid-free and I’ve killed no one!

So “my DATA” confirms I’ve done everything right

 

[Bruce]

I do have concerns about why the push for vaccinating the young, since the vaccination doesnt stop the spread, and younger people (25 and under) have very little risk of death or serious long-term affects.

In my state of Arkansas cases are declining in everyone older than 18 however cases in under 18s are 93% higher than at the previous peak in January. Concerningly 1 in 108 of those under 18 cases have been hospitalized and pediatric ICU beds have been completely full at times. The rate of death is low in pediatric CoVID patients however organ damage, thrombosis and MIS-C are occurring in hospitalized pediatric patients. It is unlikely that those hospitalized patients are emerging as healthy as they went in and likely that many who were not hospitalized have damage that will become apparent in future years.

On the positive side, study data shows vaccination to be more effective in children than in adults. Their younger and healthier immune systems are more effective after training.

Both of my children were vaccinated, at their choice, with minimal side effects.

If you wish to learn more about the damage occurring to children this publication is informative but not light reading. DEFINE_ME