The Vaccine

[AZMark]

Yes he really “DAMN(ed) you to hell” for “killing someone’s grandma” right there.
Do you have a guilty conscience or are your feelings just hyper sensitive? Maybe you need a safe space to recover.
The pissing and moaning from the anti vax side of this thread is embarrassing.

 

[Beachbummer]

The problem with trying to change someone’s mind, is that if they know that’s what you are trying to do…..they won’t let you.

“It ain’t what you don’t know that gets you into trouble. It’s what you know for sure that just ain’t so. “ – Mark Twain

If you are unwilling to change your perspective and your understanding of the world based on new evidence, you are condemned to learning about stuff only once with whatever you heard the first time.

In order to have meaningful advancement we must be willing to re-evaluate what we believe when presented with evidence to the contrary.

Here's a though....

Knowing what we know... Using @AZMark example, you may very well kill grandma by not vaccinating. I'm certain at least one person in the country has, based on law of large numbers/murphy's law. You are less likely to get sick if you are vaccinated. More Sick, more spread. Grandma got sick from someone that would not have gotten sick if they had vaccinated, poof, non-vaccination killed grandma.

Can you ascertain with 100% certainty you did not pass on COVID to a grandma that DIED after you gave it to her because you were UNVACCINATED ?? (If you did not vaccinate, you can't)
Is that reason enough to vaccinate? Some think Yes, other think No. The whole point is trying to understand each others perspective.

Pissing and Moaning to some is pleading for reason on the other side.

I know it's a trick, you can't disprove a negative, just saying...I don't think we are as far apart as everyone makes it out to be, but I will say whoever resorts to profanity and name calling of others, either directly or to their actions, is generally not in the right, and is having trouble backing up their argument with convincing words, so they resort to more offensive ones to try to make up for their lack of reasoning. (Only my humble observation)


-Flame suit on

 

[Jim_in_Delaware]

how about you change that to say died "with" Covid... sure there are cases that are soly covid... not sure its a majority, but that will never be reported

How about you stop minimizing the deaths from Covid?

If folks would still be alive if they didn't contract Covid, then Covid IS responsible for their deaths, regardless or not if they have underlying conditions.
Covid death counts are not made up, they come from death certificates completed by a physician.

You don't like the number of deaths that I noted yesterday, 780,131? Guess what, I sure as hell don't like it either, but these are the current numbers of our fellow Americans who have died so far from this virus. Thank god we have approved vaccines and demonstrated treatments for Covid, otherwise this number would be even higher.

Jim

 

[the MfM]

“Anti vaxer” has a negative connotation and has no place in a respectful debate.


I think “pro choice” is how most would prefer to be labeled.

 

[Julian]

So your point is because some of us got vaccinated (in part) because we feel like it is the right thing to do for our community - that you feel unduly pressured by that statement? That we are shaming you? That is your own translation - not mine or anyone else that has said that.

There perhaps are a few posts on this thread that are more direct - saying you SHOULD get vaccinated for x,y, or z reason. But mostly what many folks on here are saying is WE made this choice for X, Y or Z reason. If that makes you feel guilty - I can't help that. If you feel pressured or whatever - that isn't my problem. I'm entitled to say that I got vaccinated because I feel it is the correct societal thing to do in order to end/reduce this pandemic. You can tell me you think my opinion is wrong/flawed or whatever, but as many have pointed out, most of us have come to one perspective or another on if vaccines work to reduce pandemics.

I am firmly in the camp of a hundred or more years of proof that vaccines are the best approach to wiping out a disease. That I will risk my life (yes there is a small risk involved with any vaccine) taking a vaccine that I believe will help save others from death or long term consequences of the disease. If you aren't willing to do that - that is your choice. I'm not going to ridicule you for it. I am going to share the evidence and data I used (and our health organizations used) to come to this conclusion. And the"pro choicers" will use their data to show that there is risk in my choice. I know that. I accepted that risk.

So I accept that there is risk with my choice. That is a given in my mind. I won't change my perspective that vaccine programs are tried and true and the best approach to disease eradication. Is this vaccine perfect? No. But I feel (as do millions) that my sacrifice (taking that risk) is worth the benefit to humanity. Others have chosen not to take that risk. It does make me feel like I'm doing what I can to save lives. It is a fascinating moral conundrum covered by many interesting articles (both for and against):

Vaccination ethics

Abstract . Vaccination decisions and policies present tensions between individual rights and the moral duty to contribute to harm prevention. This article focus

academic.oup.com

Ethics of vaccine refusal | Journal of Medical Ethics

jme.bmj.com

SCCM | Ethical Considerations for a COVID-19 Vaccine Mandate

Mandate to vaccinate or nudge if there is no budge? COVID-19 vaccines remain a key weapon in the fight against the deadliest modern-day pandemic the world has seen. In this article, we summarize key facts and ethical considerations for healthcare organizations when considering a COVID-19 vaccine...

www.sccm.org

Vaccines: Personal Choice Or Moral Responsibility? | Texas Children's Hospital

I recently had an interesting conversation with a friend. She mentioned to me that she had seen a sign in our Houston suburb advertising the fact that parents can opt out of school-required vaccines — a fact of which she was completely unaware. Obviously I encounter this issue often in my line...

www.texaschildrens.org

Bottom line- I will likely go to my grave pro vaccine, simply because I doubt there will be any major improvement/break through that will eradicate a disease better than vaccines will. It is the only medical preventative we have today for most diseases. It has been proven with many diseases over the lifetime of my parents, grandparents, and great grand parents. The best way for vaccines to work is to have everyone (that can) get one. We've had those requirements for decades for many vaccines.....and hopefully for the sake of saving lives, our courts will understand this and support vaccination mandates. If they do not, then I foresee the resurgence in greater scales of diseases like measles, chickenpox, mumps, rubella etc. This will unfortunately kill some people who can't get vaccinated, or have compromised immune systems.....

 

[AZMark]

“Anti vaxer” has a negative connotation and has no place in a respectful debate.


I think “pro choice” is how most would prefer to be labeled.

I think there’s some tongue in cheek here but you’re right and I am guilty multiple times. Didn’t mean it that way, just easy to type.

 

[Jim_in_Delaware]

“Anti vaxer” has a negative connotation and has no place in a respectful debate.

I think “pro choice” is how most would prefer to be labeled.

I would offer that they are not necessarily the same. I think we have a number of folks on this thread who are both pro-vaccine and pro-choice (in terms of mandates).

Jim

 

[Julian]

I would offer that they are not necessarily the same. I think we have a number of folks on this thread who are both pro-vaccine and pro-choice (in terms of mandates).

Jim

And likewise, there are likely some people who are indeed anti vax., but our discussions do seem to revolve more around the concerns related to "Mandates".

 

[CAM212SS]

How about you stop minimizing the deaths from Covid?

If folks would still be alive if they didn't contract Covid, then Covid IS responsible for their deaths, regardless or not if they have underlying conditions.
Covid death counts are not made up, they come from death certificates completed by a physician.

You don't like the number of deaths that I noted yesterday, 780,131? Guess what, I sure as hell don't like it either, but these are the current numbers of our fellow Americans who have died so far from this virus. Thank god we have approved vaccines and demonstrated treatments for Covid, otherwise this number would be even higher.

Jim

lets talk about the number of innocent children being ripped about in a mothers womb. that child has no say
lets talk about car deaths... you can prevent it... dont drive
lets talk about, i cont give a damn if you take 20 shots at one time... dont tell me i have to take it.

 

[CAM212SS]

Yes he really “DAMN(ed) you to hell” for “killing someone’s grandma” right there.
Do you have a guilty conscience or are your feelings just hyper sensitive? Maybe you need a safe space to recover.
The pissing and moaning from the anti vax side of this thread is embarrassing.

not sensitive to anything anyone says to me at all pal ... I absolute hate hypocrites
like i told Jim_in_Delaware... you can get as many as you want... it does not bother me at all.

 

[AZMark]

not sensitive to anything anyone says to me at all pal ... I absolute hate hypocrites
like i told Jim_in_Delaware... you can get as many as you want... it does not bother me at all.

And you can not get it all you want so I don’t understand your initial rant about it.

The vaccine absolutely reduces risk of infection & therefore transmission (though certainly not 100%) so that part doesn’t make any sense to me. If you don’t believe something that has been proven that’s on you and not really an item that can be debated.

As to the rest of the rant Julian’s thoughts above summed it up well. There haven’t been people accusing the unvaxxed of killing grandma here that I’ve seen.

Now if anyone vaxxed or unvaxxed was knowingly infected and exposing people then that’s pretty freaking messed up but any decent person wouldn’t do that.

 

[the MfM]

And you can not get it all you want so I don’t understand your initial rant about it.

The vaccine absolutely reduces risk of infection & therefore transmission (though certainly not 100%) so that part doesn’t make any sense to me. If you don’t believe something that has been proven that’s on you and not really an item that can be debated.

As to the rest of the rant Julian’s thoughts above summed it up well. There haven’t been people accusing the unvaxxed of killing grandma here that I’ve seen.

Now if anyone vaxxed or unvaxxed was knowingly infected and exposing people then that’s pretty freaking messed up but any decent person wouldn’t do that.

Unvaxed has a negative connotation. A better phrase to use might be “pure bloods”.

 

[Beachbummer]

Surely not those that bear the dark mark and wear pointy hats??

(Harry Potter reference I hope?)

 

[tabbibus]

Surely not those that bear the dark mark and wear pointy hats??

(Harry Potter reference I hope?)

One would hope! But now a days

 

[Jim_in_Delaware]

lets talk about the number of innocent children being ripped about in a mothers womb. that child has no say
lets talk about car deaths... you can prevent it... dont drive
lets talk about, i cont give a damn if you take 20 shots at one time... dont tell me i have to take it.

lets talk about the number of innocent children being ripped about in a mothers womb. that child has no say has absolutely zero relevance to this thread or my post
lets talk about car deaths... you can prevent it... dont drive We actually do a lot to prevent car deaths: requirements for permits (testing) and provisional licenses in many states; mandatory seat belt use; many safety features on newer cars, and policing of the roads we drive on.
lets talk about, i cont give a damn if you take 20 shots at one time... dont tell me i have to take it. and while I wish you would consider getting a vaccine, if possible, ultimately the choice is yours.

I like what @Beachbummer posted above:

"“It ain’t what you don’t know that gets you into trouble. It’s what you know for sure that just ain’t so. “ – Mark Twain

If you are unwilling to change your perspective and your understanding of the world based on new evidence, you are condemned to learning about stuff only once with whatever you heard the first time.

In order to have meaningful advancement we must be willing to re-evaluate what we believe when presented with evidence to the contrary."

I'm up to having a meaningful conversation on the topic, are you?

Jim

 

[haknslash]

Anyone else see this from the American Heart Association? https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/10.1161/circ.144.suppl_1.10712

 

[Bruce]

Anyone else see this from the American Heart Association? https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/10.1161/circ.144.suppl_1.10712

Yes, that questionable conference abstract from a single, highly questionable, "doctor" regarding a questionable metric was posted by an antivaxxer previously. It is not a peer reviewed publication just blurb promoting a poster or session at a conference. Thanks for bringing it up again.

 

[Crob83]

lets talk about the number of innocent children being ripped about in a mothers womb. that child has no say has absolutely zero relevance to this thread or my post
lets talk about car deaths... you can prevent it... dont drive We actually do a lot to prevent car deaths: requirements for permits (testing) and provisional licenses in many states; mandatory seat belt use; many safety features on newer cars, and policing of the roads we drive on.
lets talk about, i cont give a damn if you take 20 shots at one time... dont tell me i have to take it. and while I wish you would consider getting a vaccine, if possible, ultimately the choice is yours.

I like what @Beachbummer posted above:

"“It ain’t what you don’t know that gets you into trouble. It’s what you know for sure that just ain’t so. “ – Mark Twain

If you are unwilling to change your perspective and your understanding of the world based on new evidence, you are condemned to learning about stuff only once with whatever you heard the first time.

In order to have meaningful advancement we must be willing to re-evaluate what we believe when presented with evidence to the contrary."

I'm up to having a meaningful conversation on the topic, are you?

Jim

Did you do the red and green for Christmas?

 

[the MfM]

Anyone else see this from the American Heart Association? https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/10.1161/circ.144.suppl_1.10712

Any incidence of new Acute Coronary Syndrome (ACS) is clearly attributable to post pandemic stress disorder (PPSD). And not the safe and effective vaccines.

 

[tabbibus]

As stated above. This is an abstract for a poster at a conference. Please please please try to understand how science works or stop trying to.

Work from an abstract should never be used as fact. If we did we would probably already cure all cancers and found a pill to grow a dick on the forehead.

The vast majority of data from an abstract dies off when more rigorous scientific method gets applied.

If any of this stuff pans out and is clinically significant then yeah let's talk about it. But for now it is nothing.