The Vaccine

[Chip F.]

Interesting short article:

Freedom Isn't Determined By Which Big Pharma Chemicals Are In Your Body

By Chris Rossini Isn't it amazing how "15 days" of sacrificing freedom has led to a downward spiral into the abyss? Benjamin Franklin did warn us when he said: "They who can give up essential liberty...

www.ronpaullibertyreport.com

 

[Julian]

Interesting short article:

Freedom Isn't Determined By Which Big Pharma Chemicals Are In Your Body

By Chris Rossini Isn't it amazing how "15 days" of sacrificing freedom has led to a downward spiral into the abyss? Benjamin Franklin did warn us when he said: "They who can give up essential liberty...

www.ronpaullibertyreport.com

I think this article sums up my feelings well about the whole "my liberty is being taken away cry"

Vaccine mandates and personal liberty can coexist

www.adn.com

 

[mwalker4]

I think this article sums up my feelings well about the whole "my liberty is being taken away cry"

Vaccine mandates and personal liberty can coexist

www.adn.com

Thanks for the article. I am glad that mandates are receiving pushback, but concede the need for some of them. I don't believe in a federal mandate and as the decision indicates all mandates should be tested before being imposed. I think the mandate should be for immunity thus include natural immunity. It seems to me 70 to 90 percent of the population will have Covid antibodies by the end the year one way or the other. I'm glad I got my vaccine because I think it's the best way to get the immunity (if that's the right term).

 

[Crob83]

Thought I would post an update. I am on my 9th day of quarantine (thank God) I cannot handle much more. I finally feel back to myself, my taste and smell are slightly back which is great. Some of those 9 days were not very pleasant, starts off rather mild and kicks in gear on day 5 or so. If I had to do it again I would probably have gotten the vaccine before I got covid...lol. My wife who was vaccinated and also tested positive, whom I believe gave me covid, only had 2 days oh symptoms

 

[Jim_in_Delaware]

Thought I would post an update. I am on my 9th day of quarantine (thank God) I cannot handle much more. I finally feel back to myself, my taste and smell are slightly back which is great. Some of those 9 days were not very pleasant, starts off rather mild and kicks in gear on day 5 or so. If I had to do it again I would probably have gotten the vaccine before I got covid...lol.

Glad to hear that you are doing well!

At this point in time, it's super easy to get the vaccine, and there are very few reported side effects.

Hopefully, folks like you telling others their experiences will cause them to reconsider getting vaccinated.

Jim

 

[2kwik4u]

I think this article sums up my feelings well about the whole "my liberty is being taken away cry"

Vaccine mandates and personal liberty can coexist

www.adn.com

Thanks for sharing this article.

I had a long response started to @Chip F. but chose to back off and not engage. This article sums up some of the points I was intending to make much better than I could have.

 

[Jim_in_Delaware]

Some of the mandates I find most disturbing are the state-wide anti-mask and anti-passport mandates!

Local school districts should be free to "mask-up" if their locality thinks it wise and in the best interest of the children, especially since those under12 can not yet get vaccinated. Likewise, businesses (like cruise companies) should be able to use vaccine passports if it helps keeps their customers safer and their business afloat.

Jim

 

[tabbibus]

Some of the mandates I find most disturbing are the state-wide anti-mask and anti-passport mandates!

Local school districts should be free to "mask-up" if their locality thinks it wise and in the best interest of the children, especially since those under12 can not yet get vaccinated. Likewise, businesses (like cruise companies) should be able to use vaccine passports if it helps keeps their customers safer and their business afloat.

Jim

fantastic point.

 

[2kwik4u]

fantastic point.

Also a great counter point to the "my liberties are being taken away" crowd.

 

[MidnightRider]

I think this article sums up my feelings well about the whole "my liberty is being taken away cry"

Vaccine mandates and personal liberty can coexist

www.adn.com

I won't argue that vaccines aren't important, but doesn't this whole "for the good of your neighbor" argument becoming more and more obsolete as we see vaccinated people spreading this virus just as readily as unvaccinated? Just recently there was an outbreak of covid in Massachusetts which has a 70% or better vaccination coverage. They say that 3/4 of the outbreak was among the vaccinated spreading it to each other. This outbreak and others is what lead the CDC to say vaccinated people need to wear masks to protect from spreading covid around. My point isn't that you shouldn't get vaccinated but that the vaccine isn't some hero move to protect others. In this case the vaccine is personal protection and therefore should be left to the person it is protecting to decide if they want to inject it. Just doesn't seem like the whole "I did it for you" argument tracks anymore and worse yet the judgement of others that if they don't get it they must hate people. Aren't we kind of talking out of two sides of your mouth by saying, get the vaccine to protect your neighbor but make sure you also use a mask cause the vaccine doesn't protect your neighbor. Again, get the vaccine, but shouldn't we at this point stop pretending that forcing other people to give up their choice is about protecting others. Isn't really just protecting themselves, and not from getting it but from dying from it?

Edited: to remove a previously started post about an article that I decided not to post, that stuck around on the top of this one.

 

[Julian]

I won't argue that vaccines aren't important, but doesn't this whole "for the good of your neighbor" argument becoming more and more obsolete as we see vaccinated people spreading this virus just as readily as unvaccinated? Just recently there was an outbreak of covid in Massachusetts which has a 70% or better vaccination coverage. They say that 3/4 of the outbreak was among the vaccinated spreading it to each other. This outbreak and others is what lead the CDC to say vaccinated people need to wear masks to protect from spreading covid around. My point isn't that you shouldn't get vaccinated but that the vaccine isn't some hero move to protect others. In this case the vaccine is personal protection and therefore should be left to the person it is protecting to decide if they want to inject it. Just doesn't seem like the whole "I did it for you" argument tracks anymore and worse yet the judgement of others that if they don't get it they must hate people. Aren't we kind of talking out of two sides of your mouth by saying, get the vaccine to protect your neighbor but make sure you also use a mask cause the vaccine doesn't protect your neighbor. Again, get the vaccine, but shouldn't we at this point stop pretending that forcing other people to give up their choice is about protecting others. Isn't really just protecting themselves, and not from getting it but from dying from it?

Edited: to remove a previously started post about an article that I decided not to post, that stuck around on the top of this one.

Great question and I don't have all the answers on these questions. What we do know is that those who are vaccinated or have immunity due to prior infection get less sick, don't need to go to the hospital and die less as a result. So the problem we are seeing is in states where vaccination rates are low, hospitals are full or filling due to the spread of the delta variant. So if more people were vaccinated, that load and death rate would drop.

So if you have a heart attack, and your ER is full and the staff are exhausted because they're full of Covid patients, I'd say - staying out of the ER is good for your neighbors. So I would argue that being vaccinated DOES help the community as a whole. Full and over run hospitals are BAD.....really BAD.

Also, I'm not aware of studies or data that tells us if vaccinated people spread less disease (might they-who knows). But since the CDC doesn't know - their new position is to say - wear a mask.

 

[Bruce]

@MidnightRider, what you are missing is that most vaccinated people will never have symptoms, feel the need to be tested or become ill enough to spread the virus.

In my state of Arkansas the hospitals are full and the unvaccinated ~62% make up more than 90% of the hospitalizations, ICU usage, ventilator usage and deaths. If the entire state was vaccinated we would be using 1/3 the hospital resources and people who have car accidents, have a heart attack or need surgery would be receiving care. As is we are regularly sending patients several states away. There is a real cost to lack of vaccination that extends far beyond CoVID itself.

 

[Julian]

What would be really cool (not sure if anyone has seen this) is a map that compares the below data (daily cases) against vaccination rates, or even better - hospitalizations against vaccination rates. I think that would tell the story.....do states with low vaccination rates have high hospital loads? (some states like Bruce's are clearly show this)

 

[Troch1]

I won't argue that vaccines aren't important, but doesn't this whole "for the good of your neighbor" argument becoming more and more obsolete as we see vaccinated people spreading this virus just as readily as unvaccinated? Just recently there was an outbreak of covid in Massachusetts which has a 70% or better vaccination coverage. They say that 3/4 of the outbreak was among the vaccinated spreading it to each other. This outbreak and others is what lead the CDC to say vaccinated people need to wear masks to protect from spreading covid around. My point isn't that you shouldn't get vaccinated but that the vaccine isn't some hero move to protect others. In this case the vaccine is personal protection and therefore should be left to the person it is protecting to decide if they want to inject it. Just doesn't seem like the whole "I did it for you" argument tracks anymore and worse yet the judgement of others that if they don't get it they must hate people. Aren't we kind of talking out of two sides of your mouth by saying, get the vaccine to protect your neighbor but make sure you also use a mask cause the vaccine doesn't protect your neighbor. Again, get the vaccine, but shouldn't we at this point stop pretending that forcing other people to give up their choice is about protecting others. Isn't really just protecting themselves, and not from getting it but from dying from it?

Edited: to remove a previously started post about an article that I decided not to post, that stuck around on the top of this one.

If you look at my prior post, you’ll recall that vaccinated people are 2-3x less likely to be infected by the Delta variant compared to unvaccinated people. That’s a big deal from a population perspective. That by itself negates your point as vaccinated can unvaccinated are NOT spreading at the same rates since they aren’t infected at the same rates.

Let’s not forget the 20x reduction in severe disease and mortality that Julian points out helps keep our healthcare system from imploding.

 

[I_squared_r]

Glad to hear that you are doing well!

At this point in time, it's super easy to get the vaccine, and there are very few reported side effects.

Hopefully, folks like you telling others their experiences will cause them to reconsider getting vaccinated.

Jim

Sharing my experience.. I think that I did before, but i'll do it again. I am very athletic, I mountain bike 10+ miles a week, eat healthy, and am very muscular from weightlifting 6+ years. I spent the winter in Rio de janeiro, often without mask, and never got COVID. I tested before returning to the US and set up my appointment for the J&J. I saw my brother and mom, and then met my friend for drinks at a restaurant. My friend was sick just a few days later, but could've been from anyone because a lot of people go through his car wash. On the 6th day, my J&J vaccine was canceled like others nationwide, and on the 7th day of isolation, I woke up feeling crappy, and my fever was increasing. I knew that it had to be COVID because I don't think i've had a fever in my life. I had 102F fever for 5 days and breathing was very difficult (remember, my cardio is very good from biking). I'm sure I got it from my friend or the restaurant. A lot of people said to me "Oh, you had COVID? It was nothing, right? You're athletic!" and I always reply "It sucked! I've never been so sick and had trouble breathing" and that is enough to convince people to get vaccinated.

 

[tabbibus]

Sharing my experience.. I think that I did before, but i'll do it again. I am very athletic, I mountain bike 10+ miles a week, eat healthy, and am very muscular from weightlifting 6+ years. I spent the winter in Rio de janeiro, often without mask, and never got COVID. I tested before returning to the US and set up my appointment for the J&J. I saw my brother and mom, and then met my friend for drinks at a restaurant. My friend was sick just a few days later, but could've been from anyone because a lot of people go through his car wash. On the 6th day, my J&J vaccine was canceled like others nationwide, and on the 7th day of isolation, I woke up feeling crappy, and my fever was increasing. I knew that it had to be COVID because I don't think i've had a fever in my life. I had 102F fever for 5 days and breathing was very difficult (remember, my cardio is very good from biking). I'm sure I got it from my friend or the restaurant. A lot of people said to me "Oh, you had COVID? It was nothing, right? You're athletic!" and I always reply "It sucked! I've never been so sick and had trouble breathing" and that is enough to convince people to get vaccinated.

glad you are better, brother.

 

[mwalker4]

I won't argue that vaccines aren't important, but doesn't this whole "for the good of your neighbor" argument becoming more and more obsolete as we see vaccinated people spreading this virus just as readily as unvaccinated? Just recently there was an outbreak of covid in Massachusetts which has a 70% or better vaccination coverage. They say that 3/4 of the outbreak was among the vaccinated spreading it to each other. This outbreak and others is what lead the CDC to say vaccinated people need to wear masks to protect from spreading covid around. My point isn't that you shouldn't get vaccinated but that the vaccine isn't some hero move to protect others. In this case the vaccine is personal protection and therefore should be left to the person it is protecting to decide if they want to inject it. Just doesn't seem like the whole "I did it for you" argument tracks anymore and worse yet the judgement of others that if they don't get it they must hate people. Aren't we kind of talking out of two sides of your mouth by saying, get the vaccine to protect your neighbor but make sure you also use a mask cause the vaccine doesn't protect your neighbor. Again, get the vaccine, but shouldn't we at this point stop pretending that forcing other people to give up their choice is about protecting others. Isn't really just protecting themselves, and not from getting it but from dying from it?

Edited: to remove a previously started post about an article that I decided not to post, that stuck around on the top of this one.

A note about the Massachusetts event. I was in that town during that time. It was Bear Week in Provincetown. A Bear is a heavy set, hairy, Gay man. While my wife, daughter, son in law, and I enjoyed our time the in town and on the beach, I guarantee there was much more than casual outdoor contact happening during those two weeks. I saw a few T shirts that said Vaccinated, Lubricated, and ready to be Penxxxxx. So I'm not sure that is a good example on normal spread between vaccinated people.

 

[Jim_in_Delaware]

Some of the mandates I find most disturbing are the state-wide anti-mask and anti-passport mandates!

Local school districts should be free to "mask-up" if their locality thinks it wise and in the best interest of the children, especially since those under12 can not yet get vaccinated. Likewise, businesses (like cruise companies) should be able to use vaccine passports if it helps keeps their customers safer and their business afloat.

Jim

Not one to usually quote my own thread, but I see I have a 'dislike' to my post. LOL, as this is my first 'dislike', I didn't know that was an option.

But seriously, I would like to hear a reply to my post (other than a dislike) from jawsf16. Even if we don't agree, we (the whole group) can have a civil discussion on differing points. I think this discussion on the vaccine, is probably one of the most civil discussions that I have seen on the internet, so there is no reason that it can't continue.

Jim

 

[AZMark]

Not one to usually quote my own thread, but I see I have a 'dislike' to my post. LOL, as this is my first 'dislike', I didn't know that was an option.

But seriously, I would like to hear a reply to my post (other than a dislike) from jawsf16. Even if we don't agree, we (the whole group) can have a civil discussion on differing points. I think this discussion on the vaccine, is probably one of the most civil discussions that I have seen on the internet, so there is no reason that it can't continue.

Jim

Those mandates are a joke and are 100% to score political points. Our lame duck governor here signed one and it’s not even being enforced, which tells you the motivation.

Smaller government! Local control! Sure…

 

[tabbibus]

It is great that they are not being enforced there. But look at other states where they are threatening withholding salary if they don't obey the mandate! Then they turn around and ask for more ventilators or out of state healthcare workers.

I 'm impressed by the healthcare workers that go to these highly unvaccinated regions to work. I know they pay a load of money, but I would not want to expose myself to the virus to that level, and also see so much self inflicted misery and death.