The Vaccine

[scbruet]

Thanks everybody! We've already been able to take her out for 3 boat rides in her first month. I can tell she loves it haha.

Right @tabbibus ... When we were asking her Dr about getting the vaccine, he said "If you were my daughter I would be making sure you got it. I'm much more terrified of you getting covid while pregnant, than of suggested/implied long term vaccine issues." He explained in mostly layman's terms how the vaccine doesn't effect the fetus and how the science behind the vaccine doesn't "go near" the fetus to potentially cause any harm. At least that's how I interpreted what he said, and I think was he was trying to get across to somebody who isn't in the medical profession.

 

[tabbibus]

Thanks everybody! We've already been able to take her out for 3 boat rides in her first month. I can tell she loves it haha.

Right @tabbibus ... When we were asking her Dr about getting the vaccine, he said "If you were my daughter I would be making sure you got it. I'm much more terrified of you getting covid while pregnant, than of suggested/implied long term vaccine issues." He explained in mostly layman's terms how the vaccine doesn't effect the fetus and how the science behind the vaccine doesn't "go near" the fetus to potentially cause any harm. At least that's how I interpreted what he said, and I think was he was trying to get across to somebody who isn't in the medical profession.

Enjoy. Boat babies are the best. My youngest, now 2 years old, is the worst. Haha. Liked her more when she was not mobile!

 

[scbruet]

Congratulations on your first child! It's great to hear that your baby and wife are doing fine.

It's an interesting question you ask about the level of immunity transferred to the baby. It's, of course, way to early to know, but the other question would be how long the baby's immunity might last.

Jim

Yeah exactly. We are low risk to exposure. We both work from home now and any family that visits has been vaccinated. The hope is that the immunity lasts long enough until it gets approved for children and just gets included with the other vaccines? I really have no clue which way that is trending.

 

[haknslash]

Honest question.

What are your concerns? Is it personal (if so, that's a fine answer and needs nothing further) or is it something else?

The are previous vaccine programs, as recently as just 8-40 years ago that a small percentage of vaccinated individuals had serious issues develop after inoculation. Sometimes years after the fact. I mentioned it earlier about regarding Gullian Barre Syndrome, narcolepsy etc from previous vaccine rollouts but I think it got dismissed as misinformation, I suppose. Vaccine concern history data and info can be found directly from the CDC Historical Safety Concerns | Vaccine Safety | CDC.

So it’s just the unknown that concerns me and others I presume. I hate reading some of the stories of that happened to some of the vaccinated. Obviously vaccines are a great thing as a whole and it’s rare bad things happen but they do happen and just blindly going along without doing any research is a disservice to ones body, IMO of course, but that is up to the individual.

I want to be clear, in case anyone gets it twisted, what I posted above is not meant to diminish or push vaccine hesitation for anyone. This should be obvious but perhaps some may take it differently. It’s just doing research and weighing the options, which is what I did when I decided to get the jabs. As I’ve mentioned before I‘be had severe cramps develop that I did not have prior to the vaccines. I’ve also had more frequent headaches. But those could also be related to a slew of other factors like stress at work (it’s unreal these days), poor diet, age etc. Either way I’m glad I took the shot even if those are side effects I’m having. If that’s all it does that’s freaking awesome if it keeps me out of the ICU. I think I’ve displayed this same stance the whole time but I just wanted to reiterate since this thread is deep AF

 

[Lurch]

If your doctor wasn't already pushing all of this before the pandemic, you need a new doctor! Does all of that help....YUP. Does it provide the protection that any of the 3 vaccines available in the US provide....nope. There is a long list of things we all can do to be more healthy. There are 3 vaccines that are highly effective at preventing death and hospitalization from Covid.

Forgive me for thinking you're being obtuse, Julian. Going back to my original post, I mentioned that the media and govt are pushing the "magic bullet" of the vaccine over any other treatments, using this as a cudgel to divide the public into two camps. I thought Swatski's post came across as just another installment of Facebook outrage, and offered some facts hoping to promote some understanding.

I'm sitting with haknslash in the 3rd camp of vaccinated but questioning the long term effects of a vaccine that does appear to be effective for a short time.

 

[2kwik4u]

My point was, why is none of this being pushed?

Because it's the long game approach. We don't need healthy people in a year, we need them now. They are great things to be doing on a daily basis regardless of the state of health you're currently in, and they should be pushed. They're the ounce of prevention we needed in 2018/2019 to be prepped for a pandemic in 2020. A vaccine is a relative short game in comparison. Full efficacy in weeks, not years.

We're in a ship, and we've hit a rock. There is a gaping hole in the bottom. Do we rely on the bilge pump alone, or do we start looking for something to plug the hole? You're right, the plug might not stick, it gets soggy and seeps through. We don't pull the plug back out though, we reinforce from the inside and try to shore up that plug. We also don't worry about how to clean up the hole that has been plugged other than a cursory check to make sure we aren't doing more damage than good. Meanwhile, the bilge has been steadily pumping away doing as best it can.

The boat is the population, the plug is the vaccine, the reinforcement is the booster shots, and the bilge is a healthy diet and exercise.

 

[2kwik4u]

The are previous vaccine programs, as recently as just 8-40 years ago that a small percentage of vaccinated individuals had serious issues develop after inoculation. Sometimes years after the fact. I mentioned it earlier about regarding Gullian Barre Syndrome, narcolepsy etc from previous vaccine rollouts but I think it got dismissed as misinformation, I suppose. Vaccine concern history data and info can be found directly from the CDC Historical Safety Concerns | Vaccine Safety | CDC.

So it’s just the unknown that concerns me and others I presume. I hate reading some of the stories of that happened to some of the vaccinated. Obviously vaccines are a great thing as a whole and it’s rare bad things happen but they do happen and just blindly going along without doing any research is a disservice to ones body, IMO of course, but that is up to the individual.

Fair enough. I appreciate the candor.

I can see the thought process and am trying to wrap my head around the stance. My wife is very much in the same position, unsure of the long term effects, but still sees the vaccine as a worthwhile endeavor. The lesser of the two evils perhaps. I have huge buckets of faith in the process, as having large glimpses behind the curtain of the scientific process, the regulatory community, and the people that have the subject matter training on these sorts of things a number of times in my life. My trust is in the system here, and by and large have a hard time understanding the perception of risk from NOT understanding that process or those people. This is my inability to understand, and does NOT invalidate your position even the slightest amount..........essentially I'm trying to gather my data to improve my own ability to empathize.

Thank you.

 

[Lurch]

Because it's the long game approach. snip...

Thanks for dumbing that down for me, 2kwik. You still didn't address my question. The vaccine doesn't prevent infection, it limits the severity. Taking vitamin C, D, Zinc and Quercetin also have been shown to limit the severity. There are other treatments besides the vaccine without wading into the whole Ivermectin Hydroxychloroquine debate.

 

[tabbibus]

Fair enough. I appreciate the candor.

I can see the thought process and am trying to wrap my head around the stance. My wife is very much in the same position, unsure of the long term effects, but still sees the vaccine as a worthwhile endeavor. The lesser of the two evils perhaps. I have huge buckets of faith in the process, as having large glimpses behind the curtain of the scientific process, the regulatory community, and the people that have the subject matter training on these sorts of things a number of times in my life. My trust is in the system here, and by and large have a hard time understanding the perception of risk from NOT understanding that process or those people. This is my inability to understand, and does NOT invalidate your position even the slightest amount..........essentially I'm trying to gather my data to improve my own ability to empathize.

Thank you.

Came here to say that I saw a meme that said 1 out of every 512 Americans have died of covid. I thought that was crazy, did my math, and came up with 1 out of every 477. WHAAAAT! Please someone tell me I'm doing it wrong. This breaks my heart.

Then I saw the post above, so I will add my 2 cents. Long term effects of vaccines are very very very rare. GBS happens acutely, not long term, and is extremely rare. I will honestly say I don't know about narcolepsy. I will have to research. But the most important thing is that this new vaccine, man, is it nice and clean. It is like a naughty snapchat message that gets deleted after you see it. The mRNA message that the cells see goes away. It does not stay. The protein produced, is produced for a bit of time, not permanently, because again, fleeting nature of naughty mRNA.

So the long term effects are very likely to be super minimal. Long term effects of even mild covid... hoooo boy. Just spend any given day with me in clinic and you will see.

 

[Bruce]

My wife got her 2 pfizer shots early in her 3rd trimester, and we welcomed our first child into this world on 8/8. My wife had no complications, and neither did the baby. It's a great peace of mind knowing that some level of immunity did transfer to the baby, but I would like to see an antibody test for my own curiosity to see how effective the pfizer shot was at passing antibodies. I'm sure there are varying results so far.

Congratulations !!!!

I am not finding any publications that tested for immune response in babies. These two publications discuss antibodies found in breast milk and cord blood. As long as Mom has antibodies and is breast feeding the child should continue to have antibodies. My guess is that the child would have developed a similar antibody response to mom but my understanding of immunology is highly focused on one disease not the wider spectrum.

Immunogenicity of COVID-19 mRNA Vaccines in Pregnant and Lactating Women

This study assesses the immunogenicity of the current COVID-19 mRNA vaccines in pregnant and lactating women against both the original SARS-CoV-2 USA-WA1/2020 strain as well as against the B.1.1.7 and B.1.351 variants of concern.

jamanetwork.com

SARS-CoV-2–Specific Antibodies in Breast Milk After COVID-19 Vaccination of Breastfeeding Women

This prospective study investigated whether antibodies from SARS-CoV-2 immunization of nursing mothers transferred to infants as a potentially protective effect.

jamanetwork.com

 

[tabbibus]

Thanks for dumbing that down for me, 2kwik. You still didn't address my question. The vaccine doesn't prevent infection, it limits the severity. Taking vitamin C, D, Zinc and Quercetin also have been shown to limit the severity. There are other treatments besides the vaccine without wading into the whole Ivermectin Hydroxychloroquine debate.

Lurch, honest question. Do you believe that the vitamins (which I'm not against), produce the same protection against severe disease that the vaccine does? If so, please show me what led you to believe this. The data that I've seen, and my personal experience, very much say they do not.

 

[2kwik4u]

Thanks for dumbing that down for me, 2kwik. You still didn't address my question. The vaccine doesn't prevent infection, it limits the severity. Taking vitamin C, D, Zinc and Quercetin also have been shown to limit the severity. There are other treatments besides the vaccine without wading into the whole Ivermectin Hydroxychloroquine debate.

Agreed. Both approaches limit severity, however the magnitude of that limitation changes based on the approach. The vaccine is much more effective at limiting the severity of the infection as it is a targeted approach, literally training the body for this specific attack. The supplements are closer to general body building in that they help fight against all attacks in general. You should do both. Make your body strong and resilient in general, then also give it the information and heads up to be proactive on fighting targeted attacks.

I have no research to back this position, just simply employing some basic knowledge of how vaccines work in general, and some reasoning to draw conclusions. I'm open to links on research to the contrary.

Also......to be clear, I'm not dumbing anything down, and don't intend to speak as if I am. I respond well to analogies and examples, so I use them often in my communication.

 

[Julian]

Forgive me for thinking you're being obtuse, Julian.

Forgive me for thinking you are being annoyingly insensitive or slow to understand (obtuse). Why one earth would our leaders/healthcare experts/media etc push a long term approach to solving an immediate problem? @2kwik4u clarified it nicely. I'd probably make it a little more direct.....when death from Covid could be upon each of us at any time, it would be absurd even criminal to push a media blitz on the items you list when there is a FAR MORE EFFECTIVE solution at hand.

That said, the CDC and the media have indeed put quite a bit of focus on the things we can/could do to protect ourselves from the virus. They also publish a lot on general healthy living.

There are other treatments besides the vaccine without wading into the whole Ivermectin Hydroxychloroquine debate.

There are no other treatments that have been proven to be effective in broad clinical trials to the level the vaccines have been.....NONE. This is why the vaccines are the number one recommendation for preventative measures to protect you from death, hospitalization or longhaul Covid. Now, it you want to get into a trial for the 4th vaccine, or one of the other unproven remedies you suggested....go for it, but the CDC, WHO, local health agencies etc are NOT going to push unproven methods, when they have 3 massively proven methods available. It is that simple. Why would they? Its hard enough for them to get people to understand ONE MESSAGE. When it comes to this sort of thing you have to KEEP IT SIMPLE. If you introduce, for example, "take Vitamin C" - the risk is people misunderstand that, and rather than getting the vaccine that works amazingly well, they take vitamin C and have very little protection to none at all. Like @tabbibus I'm curious to understand why you think vitamins should be pushed as much as vaccines.

 

[Lurch]

Lurch, honest question. Do you believe that the vitamins (which I'm not against), produce the same protection against severe disease that the vaccine does? If so, please show me what led you to believe this. The data that I've seen, and my personal experience, very much say they do not.

Hey Tab - I never implied they provide the same protection. I've stated multiple times that I took the jab for personal reasons. That being said, that vitamin regimen has shown promise in reducing the severity of an infection. If the goal is to save lives, and there's a segment of the population that is opposed or concerned about the vaccine, browbeating them isn't going to produce results.

 

[Jim_in_Delaware]

Forgive me for thinking you're being obtuse, Julian. Going back to my original post, I mentioned that the media and govt are pushing the "magic bullet" of the vaccine over any other treatments, using this as a cudgel to divide the public into two camps. I thought Swatski's post came across as just another installment of Facebook outrage, and offered some facts hoping to promote some understanding.

I'm sitting with haknslash in the 3rd camp of vaccinated but questioning the long term effects of a vaccine that does appear to be effective for a short time.

Please keep in mind that unlike the drugs used to treat Covid, the vaccine is used to prevent getting the virus in the first place. Yes, we need to realize it may not be 100% effective and even being vaccinated we can catch Covid. Hopefully, if we are vaccinated, and get Covid, it is much milder than if we were not vaccinated. For folks who get the virus, I would hope they contact their doctor and go down the path of known effective treatments and not unsubstantiated treatments like Ivermectin.

Jim

 

[tabbibus]

Hey Tab - I never implied they provide the same protection. I've stated multiple times that I took the jab for personal reasons. That being said, that vitamin regimen has shown promise in reducing the severity of an infection. If the goal is to save lives, and there's a segment of the population that is opposed or concerned about the vaccine, browbeating them isn't going to produce results.

I don't share the view that we enjoy

Gotcha.

 

[Lurch]

Forgive me for thinking you are being annoyingly insensitive or slow to understand. Why one earth would our leaders/healthcare experts/media etc push a long term approach to solving an immediate problem?

There are those who have seen the WHO/CDC/Media blast anyone who offered up the lab release theory as a crackpot for the better part of a year, only to walk it back later when the amount of evidence became too large to ignore. Why on earth would we give our blind trust to our leaders/healthcare experts/media? If you can't see that these actors have earned a badge of distrust, I don't know what to tell ya.

 

[AZMark]

Sorry Mark, but you cherry-picked my post and moved the goalpost to "seriously unhealthy people". Taking supplemental vitamin D, C and Zinc, along with personal hygiene and adequate rest can take much less than a year to provide benefits, as can exercise and quitting smoking.

My point was, why is none of this being pushed?

The US government formally recommends all of those things already. It's labeled on your food and vitamins, it's in PSAs and other media, it's included in education, wellness and addiction treatment program subsidies, etc, etc.

 

[Julian]

There are those who have seen the WHO/CDC/Media blast anyone who offered up the lab release theory as a crackpot for the better part of a year, only to walk it back later when the amount of evidence became too large to ignore. Why on earth would we give our blind trust to our leaders/healthcare experts/media? If you can't see that these actors have earned a badge of distrust, I don't know what to tell ya.

I trust them. They are my neighbors, friends, countrymen, fellow forum members. Do they make mistakes - yes. Has anyone proven this was made in a lab? No. As far as how to treat/prevent etc its spread - it could have been sent by aliens....its a moot point - except when it comes to international politics (which is a different subject entirely). A better example is the CDC's total foul up of testing early on! YES - a disaster. But they admitted the mistakes and we all moved on. People make mistakes. I still trust them. If I never forgave mistakes my daughter would be in a world of hurt!

Does the media like to sell ads - YUP. I worked in TV for a long time in my early career. So they love to hype things. But by watching plenty of outlets you can balance the hype.

 

[scbruet]

Being wrong on an educated guess, and changing your stance once new information is presented, does not mean you previous lied. Lying implies intent to deceive. These are often confused.