The Vaccine

[Lurch]

I trust them. They are my neighbors, friends, countrymen, fellow forum members. Do they make mistakes - yes.

Does the media like to sell ads - YUP. I worked in TV for a long time in my early career. So they love to hype things. But by watching plenty of outlets you can balance the hype.

You're more forgiving of "mistakes" than a sizeable portion of our country. What you call a mistake, others view as an agenda. People still allow themselves to be divided into camps by the information they consume - I agree that balancing your outlets will leave you better informed. Sadly, there's not enough of that going around.

Now - I'm going to figure out how to get antifreeze in my hard ballast tanks - there are two types of people...those with Winter, and those who live privileged lives of sunshine and palm trees.

 

[Lurch]

Being wrong on an educated guess, and changing your stance once new information is presented, does not mean you previous lied. Lying implies intent to deceive. These are often confused.

I understand the distinction, scbruet. I'll disagree that the "educated guess" played any role in castigating those who offered up a lab leak theory, given the scorched earth approach in discrediting them. BTW, congrats on the birth of your little one!

 

[Robconn]

There are those who have seen the WHO/CDC/Media blast anyone who offered up the lab release theory as a crackpot for the better part of a year, only to walk it back later when the amount of evidence became too large to ignore. Why on earth would we give our blind trust to our leaders/healthcare experts/media? If you can't see that these actors have earned a badge of distrust, I don't know what to tell ya.

I see patients all the time, unvaccinated who for that exact reason, mistrust. weather it be aimed at government or medical research, who eventually wound up in a hospital bed. With respect of their beliefs, all admitted patients agree without issue to receiving experimental medicine approved for emergency use. Suffocating with minimal exertion has a profound influence on reversing one’s outlook. families are making decisions when patients themselves are cognitively unable to make decisions with ventilator support and ultimately end of life measures. My take away regarding human nature as I see it in my environment, there are no atheist in foxholes. It’s a romantic notion, noble as well, to stand your ground on your personal beliefs yet there are consequences for every decision made. I don’t condone mis information, it has led many in harms way. As a society trust has been lost. If you don’t want the vaccine than appropriate PPE measures along with social distancing is key. But to overtly dismiss any protective strategy is dangerous for us all.

 

[scbruet]

Thanks!
I was more directing that generally at what I'm seeing these days, not at you. Anybody who said something that ended up being incorrect, seems to just be immediately called a liar now.

About the lab leak theory.....It was dismissed because at the time it was presented without evidence. The implication of the early theory was that it was a bio weapon, which is why it was correctly dismissed. It's still very likely it wasn't a lab leak, but not 0%.

 

[Lurch]

snip...

I agree 100%, Robconn. I didn't wade into this thread to dismiss/discount any protective strategy. I came in to argue against misinformation/confirmation bias/us vs them mentality. Dean was kind enough to prove my point by demanding facts/sources from me, but took Swatski's anecdote at face value.

 

[Robconn]

I agree 100%, Robconn. I didn't wade into this thread to dismiss/discount any protective strategy. I came in to argue against misinformation/confirmation bias/us vs them mentality. Dean was kind enough to prove my point by demanding facts/sources from me, but took Swatski's anecdote at face value.

I did not mean to imply you directly discounted any PPE/ social distancing strategy. My humblest apology if that’s how it came across. I agreed with your points and added my experience and thoughts. I think our exchange and dialogue is in sync with the true intention of this tread. I look forward to reading different facets of this thread.

 

[Dean P]

I agree 100%, Robconn. I didn't wade into this thread to dismiss/discount any protective strategy. I came in to argue against misinformation/confirmation bias/us vs them mentality. Dean was kind enough to prove my point by demanding facts/sources from me, but took Swatski's anecdote at face value.

IMO you did come here to argue. You kind of flip flop on comments. Still not sure what your point is or where you stand. It has been spelled out what works, what's approved and what's not.

Please reread @swatski post. The face value was appropriate.

Oh, to call someone out, put an "@" symbol in front of their name. Thanks!

 

[Julian]

There are those who have seen the WHO/CDC/Media blast anyone who offered up the lab release theory as a crackpot for the better part of a year,

Regarding this specific part of your post, I'm not aware of anyone at the CDC or WHO who blasted anyone for suggesting this escaped from a lab. I did hear and read that scientists didn't think it was likely, and administrators repeating that. Ideally the CDC would be 100% apolitical. Hard to do with human nature. But I honestly don't recall anyone at the CDC flaming anyone on this topic. Just stating the facts- we don't believe it was made in a lab.

On the other hand, there were TONS of vitriolic arguments amongst the "news" commentary types who wanted to deflect or stir up the political nature of the whole lab escape story. I put "news" in quotes - because many of these were not News people, but "Opinion" people. I honestly haven't bothered reading lately about this topic - as I said earlier - aliens could have infected us - doesn't really matter to our response. Now of course I'm going to have to go research what the latest is on the source, as the last I read still said there was no evidence either way - and that the only ones who KNOW for sure are the Chinese - and they will NEVER lose face and admit anything escaped from a lab in China...EVER.

We all have biases. We all suffer from confirmation bias. This is why I always TRY and go back and research what was actually said. I suspect you heard a lot of vitriol around the topic of the source of the virus - we all did! But I can't find, and don't recall anyone at the CDC "blasting" anyone for suggesting this. Just calm, cool collected statements that "we have no evidence today to support this". Followed by others stirring up all kinds of crap on the topic. I'm happy to be proven wrong, but is it perhaps a possibility that your bias was at play here?

 

[Lurch]

IMO you did come here to argue. You kind of flip flop on comments. Still not sure what your point is or where you stand. It has been spelled out what works, what's approved and what's not.

Please reread @swatski post. The face value was appropriate.

Oh, to call someone out, put an "@" symbol in front of their name. Thanks!

I did come in to argue, which is why I posted "I came in to argue against misinformation/confirmation bias/us vs them mentality". I've also posted I took the jab due to my personal situation. I've been consistent in my position that there are many who may not wish to get vaccinated due to a variety of reasons, and that it's not helpful to keep pushing an us vs them mentality.

 

[Dean P]

@Lurch You seem to be trying to bring other ideas to fight covid. All of which have not been verified to fight covid. These other thought might sway one's opinion and may make them holding off what should be done. This is the nonsense which we're all trying to get rid of. Stop being a part of the problem and start being a part of the solution. Please...

 

[Julian]

What you call a mistake, others view as an agenda.

Regarding this topic - I don't know anyone - on either side of the aisle that isn't concerned about what the Chinese are up to. My company has a new policy (and we are a Left leaning healthcare company) that we will not do business with any company based (or with employees) in China.

Their rampant IP theft, their insidious injection of oversight/surveillance into every company there are/is Orwellian.

But as I said earlier.....the CDC should stick with science (as best as they can).

it's not helpful to keep pushing an us vs them mentality.

I don't see it this way. Far too many people keep propagating disinformation (one person a couple of pages back) - for example - think there is no vaccine, and is happily spreading this bullshit. That is the sort of disinformation that needs to stop - or at least be countered with FACTS. If you don't think there has been, and will continue to be, bullshit disinformation being spread, you are very naïve.

Furthermore, the message from the CDC and our healthcare systems needs to be simple. Get vaccinated. Muddying it with also take vitamins, get exercise etc confuses people and may lead them to making a bad decision. Keep it simple - get vaccinated.

 

[Lurch]

Regarding this specific part of your post, I'm not aware of anyone at the CDC or WHO who blasted anyone for suggesting this escaped from a lab. I did hear and read that scientists didn't think it was likely, and administrators repeating that. Ideally the CDC would be 100% apolitical. Hard to do with human nature. But I honestly don't recall anyone at the CDC flaming anyone on this topic. Just stating the facts- we don't believe it was made in a lab.

On the other hand, there were TONS of vitriolic arguments amongst the "news" commentary types who wanted to deflect or stir up the political nature of the whole lab escape story. I put "news" in quotes - because many of these were not News people, but "Opinion" people. I honestly haven't bothered reading lately about this topic - as I said earlier - aliens could have infected us - doesn't really matter to our response. Now of course I'm going to have to go research what the latest is on the source, as the last I read still said there was no evidence either way - and that the only ones who KNOW for sure are the Chinese - and they will NEVER lose face and admit anything escaped from a lab in China...EVER.

We all have biases. We all suffer from confirmation bias. This is why I always TRY and go back and research what was actually said. I suspect you heard a lot of vitriol around the topic of the source of the virus - we all did! But I can't find, and don't recall anyone at the CDC "blasting" anyone for suggesting this. Just calm, cool collected statements that "we have no evidence today to support this". Followed by others stirring up all kinds of crap on the topic. I'm happy to be proven wrong, but is it perhaps a possibility that your bias was at play here?

I agree - we'll never know the source, China will not provide access.

Of course the media was at the forefront of attempts to discredit the Lab Leak theory. That is, after all, where people get their information, accurate or not. Which is why I agreed that informed people seek out several different outlets to form their opinion, if they're not willing to dig in a research the source material.

As to going back to the medical community leadership, if not the CDC specifically, I'll refer you back to the Lancet - DEFINE_ME "We stand together to strongly condemn conspiracy theories suggesting that COVID-19 does not have a natural origin".

Perhaps it was unfair to lump the CDC/NIH in with this, since Redfield did speculate that it was a lab leak. Fauci and Collins only downplayed the theory and did nothing to temper the opposition to it.

 

[swatski]

Now Israel is interesting. We are learning a lot from them. Yes, they have a lot more vaxxed people in the hospital than us.

Israel is interesting, and they have been relatively speaking ahead of the rest of us, however it is also fairly small population and some of the data in various Israeli studies shows OR (odds ratios) which are out of this world / disproportionately high as compared to what would be expected in these kinds of studies, indicating some caution. It's basically the same issue as with so called underpowered studies, where sampling error may be significant enough to throw some predictors way off.

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[Lurch]

@Lurch You seem to be trying to bring other ideas to fight covid. All of which have not been verified to fight covid. These other thought might sway one's opinion and may make them holding off what should be done. This is the nonsense which we're all trying to get rid of. Stop being a part of the problem and start being a part of the solution. Please...

I'm not bringing ideas, Dean - they're already out there, being studied, in clinical trials, etc. For many reasons, a sizeable number of people elect not to vaccinate. Some are immuno-compromised, others have had COVID and have natural antibodies, and others are unsure about the long term effects of the vaccine. You're not going to win them over by shaming them. The mindset that alternative approaches are nonsense that we need to rid ourselves of doesn't really jibe with the scientific method, now does it?

 

[tabbibus]

I'm not bringing ideas, Dean - they're already out there, being studied, in clinical trials, etc. For many reasons, a sizeable number of people elect not to vaccinate. Some are immuno-compromised, others have had COVID and have natural antibodies, and others are unsure about the long term effects of the vaccine. You're not going to win them over by shaming them. The mindset that alternative approaches are nonsense that we need to rid ourselves of doesn't really jibe with the scientific method, now does it?

You know, I've always wondered about the "immunocompromised" angle. Does anyone have a good theory as to why some folks think this population should NOT get the shot? If anything, these folks need it, and are the first we recommend to get the booster.

 

[swatski]

Regarding this specific part of your post, I'm not aware of anyone at the CDC or WHO who blasted anyone for suggesting this escaped from a lab. I did hear and read that scientists didn't think it was likely, and administrators repeating that. Ideally the CDC would be 100% apolitical. Hard to do with human nature. But I honestly don't recall anyone at the CDC flaming anyone on this topic. Just stating the facts- we don't believe it was made in a lab.

On the other hand, there were TONS of vitriolic arguments amongst the "news" commentary types who wanted to deflect or stir up the political nature of the whole lab escape story. I put "news" in quotes - because many of these were not News people, but "Opinion" people. I honestly haven't bothered reading lately about this topic - as I said earlier - aliens could have infected us - doesn't really matter to our response. Now of course I'm going to have to go research what the latest is on the source, as the last I read still said there was no evidence either way - and that the only ones who KNOW for sure are the Chinese - and they will NEVER lose face and admit anything escaped from a lab in China...EVER.

We all have biases. We all suffer from confirmation bias. This is why I always TRY and go back and research what was actually said. I suspect you heard a lot of vitriol around the topic of the source of the virus - we all did! But I can't find, and don't recall anyone at the CDC "blasting" anyone for suggesting this. Just calm, cool collected statements that "we have no evidence today to support this". Followed by others stirring up all kinds of crap on the topic. I'm happy to be proven wrong, but is it perhaps a possibility that your bias was at play here?

Dude is just spreading more bullshit - what was blasted was not the lab leak but the debunked assertion by conspiracy mongers that the virus was man-made/created in the Wuhan lab. That has been proven categorically false, but those people don't care.

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[Lurch]

Damn, @swatski - I think you've disliked every post I put up today. You sure seem to be committed to your camp. Have a great day!

 

[swatski]

Damn, @swatski - I think you've disliked every post I put up today. You sure seem to be committed to your camp. Have a great day!

I don't have a camp. Lurch.

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[Evil Sports]

Damn, @swatski - I think you've disliked every post I put up today. You sure seem to be committed to your camp. Have a great day!

You have found the center of whats wrong with this thread. Im loling all day watching

 

[Lurch]

Dude is just spreading more bullshit - what was blasted was not the lab leak but the debunked assertion by conspiracy mongers that the virus was man-made/created in the Wuhan lab. That has been proven categorically false, but those people don't care.

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Lol, show me the source on this one. Please @swatski! Unless, of course, it's an unnamed Neurologist/Family Practitioner in Arkansas. In which case, I'll just take your word for it.