Coronavirus

[Julian]

due to their borderline (and possibly outright) criminal mishandling of the early stages of this outbreak.

They handled the virus exactly as we should have-by quarantining 500 MILLION people- the largest EVER in HUMAN HISTORY! If we'd had ANY BRAINS we would have looked at (and read) the reports coming from our intelligence community on a daily basis (vs watching TV) warning us of what was going on inside China and been preparing ourselves as we saw this developing. Sure China should have told us what was happening and we can whine about their lack of transparency till the cows come home, but we aren't going to change how a communist dictatorship handles bad news! We chose to ignore ALL the warning signs and in the hope that it was just going to go away. When what we should have done is ask ourselves.....Why the fuck is China putting 500 MILLION people under quarantine???? Must mean they are scared shitless of what they have.

It is criminal that my high school friend who's a nurse in NY is being forced to reuse the same N95 mask for an entire week. Before this crisis, she would have been reprimanded for reusing a mask!

I do hope we learn many lessons from this colossal mess.

 

[msavold]

I hope that one positive outcome from this is similar to the aftermath to the Arab oil embargo - a push to re-examine just what should be sourced in-house and a drive to independence in critical materiel. Time to look at the same thing for PPE, pharmaceuticals, and a bunch of other stuff, most of which in the past we have not considered ourselves as vulnerable for primarily because people would not consider or accept a scenario such as we have now. (Ok, maybe we can still survive as net importers of toilet paper...!)

 

[swatski]

China virus

Used maliciously, as it has been, I'm frankly surprised anyone would use the term here. Thought we were all adults.

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[Dixie Highway]

They handled the virus exactly as we should have-by quarantining 500 MILLION people- the largest EVER in HUMAN HISTORY! If we'd had ANY BRAINS we would have looked at (and read) the reports coming from our intelligence community on a daily basis (vs watching TV) warning us of what was going on inside China and been preparing ourselves as we saw this developing. Sure China should have told us what was happening and we can whine about their lack of transparency till the cows come home, but we aren't going to change how a communist dictatorship handles bad news! We chose to ignore ALL the warning signs and in the hope that it was just going to go away. When what we should have done is ask ourselves.....Why the fuck is China putting 500 MILLION people under quarantine???? Must mean they are scared shitless of what they have.

It is criminal that my high school friend who's a nurse in NY is being forced to reuse the same N95 mask for an entire week. Before this crisis, she would have been reprimanded for reusing a mask!

I do hope we learn many lessons from this colossal mess.

While the result may or may not have been successful (you are assuming a lot there trusting their numbers, look at today’s latest) the methods are something here in the US that would not and should not be allowed. Regardless of the fear of the virus, our citizenry would not stand being welded into their homes. And that’s just what they let us see, likely that was one of their more light handed methods.

 

[GTBRMC]

While the result may or may not have been successful (you are assuming a lot there trusting their numbers, look at today’s latest) the methods are something here in the US that would not and should not be allowed. Regardless of the fear of the virus, our citizenry would not stand being welded into their homes. And that’s just what they let us see, likely that was one of their more light handed methods.

Their methods can, indeed, be much more brutal than that. I personally witnessed a couple of instances that spooled into aggressive violence exceptionally quickly. Maybe more informative was the reaction from all the people in the immediate vicinity: move away quickly, do not watch, don't look back. The reflexive response was conditioned and astonishing.

 

[haknslash]

Used maliciously, as it has been, I'm frankly surprised anyone would use the term here. Thought we were all adults.

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Easy there tiger.

Is it not where it originated from?

Didn't the West Nile Virus get its name from the West Nile district in Uganda?

Didn't the Middle Eastern Respiratory Syndrome (MERS) gets it name from the Middle East region of the world in Saudi Arabia?

Didn't the swine flu (H1N1) gets its name from the fact it was known to circulate from pigs?

Most of these diseases get their name from the origin it was discovered in. Nothing malicious about facts and sorry you feel that way.

 

[swatski]

Easy there tiger.

Is it not where it originated from?

Didn't the West Nile Virus get its name from the West Nile district in Uganda?

Didn't the Middle Eastern Respiratory Syndrome (MERS) gets it name from the Middle East region of the world in Saudi Arabia?

Didn't the swine flu (H1N1) gets its name from the fact it was known to circulate from pigs?

Most of these diseases get their name from the origin it was discovered in. Nothing malicious about facts. Sorry you feel that way.

While observational language certainly has its uses, the term has been used maliciously as I'm sure you are aware.
Notably, the term is not in use by those who are in business of articulating viral nomenclature for the purpose of lay communication and scientific discussion. It is, by the way, a regimented and highly organized process. Which, I guess, you wouldn't know.

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[haknslash]

No I don't know anything about medical stuff and how to talk like a doc. Most of what y’all say may as well be written in another language lol. I literally have to google search behind some of y’all just so I can somewhat understand the terminology.

 

[Bruce]

@haknslash, I do not know how the term Spanish flu was used when it was originated. That flu likely began in France but was reported on by the Spanish media during WWI so it became associated with Spain. I suspect it was not used in a derogatory way. In recent decades the name Spanish Flu has been replaced with H1N1 in polite and educated conversation.

In 2015 WHO issued policies for naming viruses. Officially the virus that causes CovID-19 is named SARS-Cov-2.

Terms such as “Chinese Virus” and “Wuhan Flu” have been used in derogatory and racist statements about the virus. That language is not helpful and likely distracts from the critical need to find ways to work and live around this virus.

 

[Liveto99]

Not to offend anyone but “Kung Flu” was my favorite name so far. I am not a Dr.

 

[zipper]

@haknslash, I do not know how the term Spanish flu was used when it was originated. That flu likely began in France but was reported on by the Spanish media during WWI so it became associated with Spain. I suspect it was not used in a derogatory way. In recent decades the name Spanish Flu has been replaced with H1N1 in polite and educated conversation.

In 2015 WHO issued policies for naming viruses. Officially the virus that causes CovID-19 is named SARS-Cov-2.

Terms such as “Chinese Virus” and “Wuhan Flu” have been used in derogatory and racist statements about the virus. That language is not helpful and likely distracts from the critical need to find ways to work and live around this virus.

The Spanish flu started in Kansas and brought to Europe by US soldiers during WW1. Flu Epidemic of 1918 - Kansapedia - Kansas Historical Society

 

[tabbibus]

Just want to give a big thank you to @Bruce for these face shields and ear savers (my ears are so happy now)!



And to @JetBoatPilot for this great face shield.



You guys rock and I'll make sure all of these are put to good use.

 

[Beachbummer]

With a shortage of testing, and heater focus on those sick staying home... Shouldn't we dedicate testing to those seemingly healthy in great contact with those at risk?

Workers in hospitals and retirement communities, those working facing the public, should those not be tested early and often to identify them early and prevent them from spreading it?



Whether because of the flu or covid, with the current limited treatment options, what is the real benefit of confirming sunshine with all symptoms on the hospital tests positive? What is to be done differently for that person? Treatment is the same, so why test them? We already know they are sick and need treatment. Let's leverage that test to discover a healthy looking person spreading the disease instead. Random testing when leaving the supermarket for example.

Just a thought.

 

[swatski]

With a shortage of testing, and heater focus on those sick staying home... Shouldn't we dedicate testing to those seemingly healthy in great contact with those at risk?

Workers in hospitals and retirement communities, those working facing the public, should those not be tested early and often to identify them early and prevent them from spreading it?



Whether because of the flu or covid, with the current limited treatment options, what is the real benefit of confirming sunshine with all symptoms on the hospital tests positive? What is to be done differently for that person? Treatment is the same, so why test them? We already know they are sick and need treatment. Let's leverage that test to discover a healthy looking person spreading the disease instead. Random testing when leaving the supermarket for example.

Just a thought.

Yes. Why would we not test???? We should had been testing far and wide, for months.

Testing, as advised by the experts, for the presence of active virus/viremia (molecular testing if you will) and, separately, for the presence of antibodies - viral specific immunoglobulins indicating immunological response presumably clearing the virus (serological testing).

We would know exactly what's going on.That would paint a fairly complete picture of "the situation" so we could actually understand and could deal with the problem at hand (the pandemic) and would had likely been able to drastically reduce the spread, use preventive measures minimizing the effects on our daily lives. Unfortunately, the experts have apparently been sidelined, at the very top.

Let's complain about China? How is that helpful? (EDIT: not directed at @Beachbummer! lol)

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[Bruce]

@Beachbummer, you make a good point about testing essential workers who could spread the virus. Unfortunately our testing capacity is quite low. We have tested less than 1% of the population in a month and that has overloaded the system to the point that tests are often taking a week or more to process. In my state those infected may recover or die before they receive test results.

There are several active studies trying to treat the virus with existing drugs. If I had the virus I would want to participate in one of those studies. Not expecting benefit but to contribute to the process of learning what treatments might work. Without having a test result there would be no opportunity to participate in such a study.

 

[Julian]

While the result may or may not have been successful (you are assuming a lot there trusting their numbers, look at today’s latest) the methods are something here in the US that would not and should not be allowed. Regardless of the fear of the virus, our citizenry would not stand being welded into their homes. And that’s just what they let us see, likely that was one of their more light handed methods.

I'm not trusting their numbers one bit!!! Did I say I was? Exactly the opposite! I am saying we should trust our intelligence services! When they began reporting massive and draconian quarantine efforts we should have ACTED IMMEDIATELY as those efforts were clearly in reaction to a VERY contagious and deadly disease. That is the job of these intelligence services. They dont pass on what the foreign governments are reporting, they analyze what's going on on the ground and use it to confirm or deny the "official party line". We chose to ignore those reports! Reports which allegedly go back to November.

Had we, in November, forced the Chinese to turn over a sample of the virus and ramped up our production of a test for it.....imagine where we'd be now! Imagine how much less the economic impact might have been!

It saddens me how our intelligence services are being treated (as someone who has a relative who used to work in them, and friends who served in them too). These are literally some of our smartest citizens!

 

[Betik]

@Julian although I agree with your statements, I am not sure how we could FORCE to turn in a sample of the virus. Procure by other means that is a different story.
On the White House briefings the president has mentioned a couple of times why China was being pampered until the trade deal was done.

the “China virus “ rhetoric is my opinion is dangerous because it lays the under work needed to make an official complain that China is responsible and there other countries can demand compensation for consequences suffered by other nations. At best this makes a good negotiation ammunition for the next round of trade talks, at worse it ......
I let that be for another thread that I hope we will never have to talk about.

 

[Julian]

@Julian although I agree with your statements, I am not sure how we could FORCE to turn in a sample of the virus. Procure by other means that is a different story.
On the White House briefings the president has mentioned a couple of times why China was being pampered until the trade deal was done.

the “China virus “ rhetoric is my opinion is dangerous because it lays the under work needed to make an official complain that China is responsible and there other countries can demand compensation for consequences suffered by other nations. At best this makes a good negotiation ammunition for the next round of trade talks, at worse it ......
I let that be for another thread that I hope we will never have to talk about.

Yup....no reason why we couldn't have sent in operatives to get a sample themselves, or do what most field officers do....pay a local to get one. Hopefully this is already part of the plan...or on the "next time" list!

 

[GTBRMC]

General comment regarding the many expressed concerns regarding why our federal government did not do more, sooner:

As a nation, we were in a very vulnerable position coming in to this pandemic.

We had very low stockpiles of PPE, particularly the critical N95 (and similar) masks. We have some, but comparatively quite low capacity to produce these domestically. Same with ventilators. Same with a variety of pharmaceuticals.

We also have a very open, social, and personal-freedom-loving society. And we have not been directly affected by major, fast-moving infectious disease epidemics in a couple of generations. SARS, MERS, H1N1 were all fairly widespread global health crises that had (relatively) minimal impact here, so they did not have a major impact in social behavior like they did elsewhere.

Despite all the noise and partisan bluster (sometimes loud, obnoxious, largely unhelpful and from both major parties), and all of the hindsight second-guessing, consider for a moment what the US (including federal, state, and local government, businesses, and NGO respones) HAS done in response to this pandemic:

• State of Emergency at federal level and all 50 states (and, I believe, all protectorates, territories, etc)
• National Guard and other military assets deployed to the tune of tens of thousands
• Nearly all people (300+ million) across the country in some sort of a lockdown
• Nearly all schools and universities classrooms closed
• Nearly all professional and amatuer sports stopped
• Nearly all churches, and other houses of faith/worship closed
• Most international borders nearly closed (including air traffic)
• 4,000,000 tests (and ramping daily) administered and analyized
• Managed ICU caseloads in some hotspots up to 10x their normal levels
• Kept the country fed
• Kept all critical infrastructure up and running (electric, gas, water, sewer, telco, Internet)
• All was done with, at least, some thoughtfulness about the Constitution: states rights, civil rights, etc

Etc, etc, etc. And all with essentially zero civil unrest. Think about all of that. Now clear your mind and return to December 1, 2019. How would your 12/1/19 self react to the above changes?

It is myopic and naive to think that all of this has been done accidentally and without a lot of planning and foresight - particularly when it comes to managing ALL of us through the psychological change curve.

US intelligence agencies and disaster planning agencies have long known the risks of this type of pandemic. They have known the risks have been rising with increasing global population and air travel. They have been building and revising plans around this type of situation for many years. And they did warn the government, and their warnings were included in briefings to the NSC, to the president. And also to the intelligence committees in the House and the Senate. And plans have been executed. Certainly they have been adjusted on the fly as new information was learned and unanticipated problems arose, etc.

Has our government made mistakes? Absolutely. Could more lives have been saved if plans were better, if execution was better, if grandstanding politicians (of both parties) had not done what politicians do? Of course.

But, given how unprepared we were coming into this, let's all consider that work WAS done by thousands of professionals to get us started on minimizing the death and destruction from this pandemic. And, now that millions of professionals ARE working on every imaginable aspect of this pandemic, we will continue to work our way through this.

 

[Bruce]

@tabbibus, this might be helpful for you.

Aerosol and Surface Distribution of Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome Coronavirus 2 in Hospital Wards, Wuhan, China, 2020

Distribution of SARS-CoV-2 in Hospital Wards

wwwnc.cdc.gov