Towing with Tesla Model X

[OrangeTJ]

From another owner of a Landy - tumbs up, lol.
Don't get me wrong, I love my Land Cruiser to death. It's a 2017 bought new in 2018 with all the concurrent software upgrades and it is an absolute and a complete electronic dog, it is almost hilariously bad in some regards. There are very few things in the Toyota electronics in that truck that I actually really like, including crawl control and forward/horizontal cameras but the 90% of the system feels extremely dated like an old German early 90s car really, it is almost comical. The truck has superior road capability, on and off pavement, and it does everything great including towing albeit it is not the best. One thing that's atrocious though is the fuel economy... BUt... just like my (highly modified) AR240 the Landy does everything I need it to do!
I'm trying to convince my wife to trade her 4Runner for a Model X, LOL. It's like pulling "a @robert843 ", lol.

Agree. It is a supremely reliable and solidly built vehicle that can go pretty much anywhere you'd want to take such a thing - we had not a single issue in the 87K miles we owned it other than needing a new battery. Fuel use is unbelievably bad, though. We live in a hilly area and averaged 11 mpg. On the rare occasion that we used it to tow our boat, we got about 8mpg towing. Plenty of power and control but watching the tank empty was rough, lol. Considering that we averaged 17K miles a year (actually more like 20K for the past couple of years), we spent way too much time and money at the gas station.

 

[swatski]

Agree. It is a supremely reliable and solidly built vehicle that can go pretty much anywhere you'd want to take such a thing - we had not a single issue in the 87K miles we owned it other than needing a new battery. Fuel use is unbelievably bad, though. We live in a hilly area and averaged 11 mpg. On the rare occasion that we used it to tow our boat, we got about 8mpg towing. Plenty of power and control but watching the tank empty was rough, lol. Considering that we averaged 17K miles a year (actually more like 20K for the past couple of years), we spent way too much time and money at the gas station.

Very true, you can watch the gas gauge needle move when driving hard, it is almost unbelievable, I moved to LC200 from a Q7 TDI which was about as torque-y but with a 600 mile range...
However, after our Lake Powell trip last year we decided we are going to keep the Landy probably forever, the thing was towing our AR240 keeping up with high altitude New Mexico, Arizona (85mph?) highway traffic when needed/called for up the mountains without any hesitation, it blew my mind. Then - I launch the boat with the LC anywhere - including over (unpaved) river embankments, and during Missouri floods here.
We also needed no chains to pass the Wolf Creek Pass in a snow storm... The thing is just a beast...

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[2kwik4u]

Just a bit of background, this guy bought a flooded Tesla model S and rebuilt it from a wrecked one. He actually has a deep affinity for EV’s and Tesla in particular. So much so he opened a 3rd party garage to repair and service them. The main issue he’s had is that Tesla doesn’t want to support their vehicles unless a Tesla facility is doing the work. Imagine if your Toyota broke, and the only way Toyota would sell you parts is if you took it to the dealer? Oh, and while it’s in there if there are mods they don’t approve of they can either remove them unilaterally or disable your vehicle. Now imagine they could do that without you bringing it in, just checking their OTA network. The point is that Tesla, while revolutionary on the technology forefront, is sorely lacking in service and support. If they aim to displace the major players that will have to change.

Here's some interesting reading on the "right to repair" stuff going on in "industrial" machines right now. Tesla is closer to a John Deere, or Caterpillar right now than a Ford or Toyota IMO.

This Proposed National Right-to-Repair Law Is Great But Only a Start

You may recall that there’s been a lot of effort on the part of big companies—carmakers, agricultural equipment makers, consumer electronics companies, and more—to make it not just difficult, but actually illegal for owners to repair or modify products they bought and own. We’ve thought that’s...

jalopnik.com

Even The American Military Is Struggling With Right-To-Repair

Imagine that you’re stationed at an outpost deep in a conflict zone. Your MRAP’s alternator is busted and you’ve got a spare, but your mechanic tells you that she’ll void the warranty if you let her replace it. It’s either tow the whole thing out or let it sit there wasting space. That’s what...

foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com

 

[2kwik4u]

The main issue is Telsa doesnt want salvaged vehicles plugged into their super high power expensive charging units. I cannot fault them for that one bit. If your car blows up at a Telsa charger because of some after market cheap part, you'll sue Telsa for a new car! Screw that! I totally understand why they want to control their super charger access. Help me understand why you wouldn't want to prevent this?

The issue I took was with them disabling ALL high speed charging. Even from 3rd party chargers. Protect thier own network all they way, fine. But don't restrict my access on MY car from anywhere that will dispense electrons.

Imagine if you bought a used Toyota, took it in for service, and then suddenly can't use half the charging stations because the previous owner installed an off brand filler hose? Sounds pretty ridiculous right? While the analogy of filler hose to charging circuit is certainly not completely accurate, it's not completely far fetched either.

 

[Julian]

The issue I took was with them disabling ALL high speed charging. Even from 3rd party chargers. Protect thier own network all they way, fine. But don't restrict my access on MY car from anywhere that will dispense electrons.

Imagine if you bought a used Toyota, took it in for service, and then suddenly can't use half the charging stations because the previous owner installed an off brand filler hose? Sounds pretty ridiculous right? While the analogy of filler hose to charging circuit is certainly not completely accurate, it's not completely far fetched either.

All I gathered from the video was Tesla disabled connections to their own super chargers. But I didnt watch it all.

 

[Dixie Highway]

All I gathered from the video was Tesla disabled connections to their own super chargers. But I didnt watch it all.

The legal document he references says “Superchargers and other high speed chargers”. The argument is that they’ve placed the permission to high speed charge via Supercharger or other in the car, not the dispenser. So yes, fine protect your own charging network, but then to say I can’t use a network owned by others? The final summary from the video is, you may have purchased the car from Tesla, but with their ability to turn on and off features at will (Supercharging, self driving, etc) do you ever truly “own” the vehicle as purchased? Self driving is a $7,000 option that is merely a software change that Tesla can take away at any time. Over the air. That drastically affects the value of the vehicle if you ever sell or trade it in. As it pertains to this thread, I wonder if “prolonged or excessive” towing will one day affect warranty status?

 

[swatski]

Self driving is a $7,000 option that is merely a software change that Tesla can take away at any time.

I'm sure it will become a subscription item at some point, probably pretty soon. Just like watching netflix on a tv, lol.

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[2kwik4u]

This just came across my news feed.

https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/f5vhv4

Guy attempting to get a salvaged Model 3 back up and running. Tesla is essentially saying no.

What a waste. Wonder how many salvaged cars that could otherwise be driven it takes to reverse the environmental impact of a single EV? 2:1? 10:1?

 

[Julian]

This just came across my news feed.

https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/f5vhv4

Guy attempting to get a salvaged Model 3 back up and running. Tesla is essentially saying no.

What a waste. Wonder how many salvaged cars that could otherwise be driven it takes to reverse the environmental impact of a single EV? 2:1? 10:1?

So the result will be no one will want to touch a salvaged Telsa, which will in turn drive up insurance costs for them....Tesla doesnt care as they have a better obsolescence plan! But owners may get pissed.

 

[OrangeTJ]

I wonder if the issue comes down to the reality that if the salvaged car isn't put back together right and has some kind of catastrophic failure or is just plagued by gremlins, people will chalk it up to a Tesla problem, not a rebuilt salvaged vehicle problem.

With regard to the environmental impact of the batteries, I wonder how many people think about that as it pertains to the cell phones we all carry around, with folks buying new ones every couple of years. .

 

[ripler]

Tesla is the new Apple

 

[thefortunes]

The legal document he references says “Superchargers and other high speed chargers”. The argument is that they’ve placed the permission to high speed charge via Supercharger or other in the car, not the dispenser. So yes, fine protect your own charging network, but then to say I can’t use a network owned by others? The final summary from the video is, you may have purchased the car from Tesla, but with their ability to turn on and off features at will (Supercharging, self driving, etc) do you ever truly “own” the vehicle as purchased? Self driving is a $7,000 option that is merely a software change that Tesla can take away at any time. Over the air. That drastically affects the value of the vehicle if you ever sell or trade it in. As it pertains to this thread, I wonder if “prolonged or excessive” towing will one day affect warranty status?

Tesla cannot take away something that you have purchased, nor do they, unless your car has been totaled.

Edited to add, if you rebuild a totaled car and want to reinstate supercharging, ability to get service by Tesla, software updates, etc... you can get it inspected and recertified by Tesla.

If you sell a Tesla, everything you purchased (FSD etc...) goes with the car.

If you trade it to Tesla, they have the ability to remove options to make the car less expensive for the next purchaser who, in turn, has the option to add them for a higher price. Simple.

 

[thefortunes]

So the result will be no one will want to touch a salvaged Telsa, which will in turn drive up insurance costs for them....Tesla doesnt care as they have a better obsolescence plan! But owners may get pissed.

There are tons of people who buy salvage Teslas, mainly to part out (as part supply is definitely one of Tesla's weaknesses).

There are plenty who rebuild them, you just have to be aware that you are restricted in what you can do (without hacking the firmware or getting it recertified by Tesla).

It has been this way since the Roadster, and my insurance on all three is comparable to other vehicles with the same costs.

 

[2kwik4u]

Tesla cannot take away something that you have purchased, nor do they, unless your car has been totaled.

So If I buy a damaged Tesla, then repair it, they won't take away the ability to use the supercharger network? I would have purchased a car that was capable of that at one point, now it wouldn't be capable of that. Same analogy as before, it's the equivalent of buying a damaged Nissan, repairing it, and suddenly not being able to use a major feature of the car. Seems kinda shady IMO. I haven't seen any reports of non-repaired vehicles having this issue from Tesla's side though, so to me, it still looks like a right to repair issue.

The proprietary hardware/software interface premise has been used by many other companies in the past and currently. Apple and Sony are two notable companies that use VERY proprietary technology pairing on a regular basis, with success. Those are also two companies that typically don't get my money because of that "ecosystem" that they want you to buy into, and the associated cost of buying proprietary equipment.

 

[thefortunes]

So If I buy a damaged Tesla, then repair it, they won't take away the ability to use the supercharger network? I would have purchased a car that was capable of that at one point, now it wouldn't be capable of that. Same analogy as before, it's the equivalent of buying a damaged Nissan, repairing it, and suddenly not being able to use a major feature of the car. Seems kinda shady IMO. I haven't seen any reports of non-repaired vehicles having this issue from Tesla's side though, so to me, it still looks like a right to repair issue.

The proprietary hardware/software interface premise has been used by many other companies in the past and currently. Apple and Sony are two notable companies that use VERY proprietary technology pairing on a regular basis, with success. Those are also two companies that typically don't get my money because of that "ecosystem" that they want you to buy into, and the associated cost of buying proprietary equipment.

To answer your question, as I stated above a totaled (not just damaged) Tesla is restricted from using the supercharger network unless you take it to be re-certified (which in my opinion is reasonable, others may feel differently).

This is definitely a right to repair issue.

I have worked on the high-voltage components of my Roadster which would have voided the warranty (if it were still in place). Tesla does restrict to whom they will sell HV components so you either have to find a friendly service/parts manager or go aftermarket if you want to do that type of work yourself or outside of a Tesla authorized shop.

Most parts are available from Tesla, however (they even sold me something I figured would be on the restricted list).

 

[thefortunes]

This may be of interest to some who are reading this thread (since we certainly have, over the last 34 pages, diverted from towing only)...

I got in the Model S sometime over the weekend and it wouldn't navigate to a destination - it said to see a service center. (I could still see my location and the map, it just wouldn't navigate).

Went to the app on my phone and scheduled a mobile service appointment (they come to your house or work) for today.

Yesterday I got a text saying they took a look and it appeared my map file got corrupted (no idea how that happens, but ok) and just needed to be reloaded. The file reloaded last night and everything is good today.

Didn't have to go to a service center, no cost (even though I am out of warranty) and took about 3 minutes of my time.

 

[2kwik4u]

To answer your question, as I stated above a totaled (not just damaged) Tesla is restricted from using the supercharger network unless you take it to be re-certified (which in my opinion is reasonable, others may feel differently).

There are reports all over the place that contradict this. Here's just one from 2018.

Perhaps the wording of totaled is the issue, as an insurance write off certainly doesn't always mean the car isn't easily repairable. Had a CTS-V that was "totaled". Required a new HID headlamp assembly, some hardware, bumper cover and fender. Car wasn't financially worth rearing, but the damage was what most would consider to be minimal. IMO Tesla is being overly "tight" with what they allow back into the market. Unsure the reasoning, whether it's brand image they are worried about, or what the motivation is. It's not a good look for them though IMO.

This is definitely a right to repair issue.

I have worked on the high-voltage components of my Roadster which would have voided the warranty (if it were still in place). Tesla does restrict to whom they will sell HV components so you either have to find a friendly service/parts manager or go aftermarket if you want to do that type of work yourself or outside of a Tesla authorized shop.

Most parts are available from Tesla, however (they even sold me something I figured would be on the restricted list).

I get there is some inherent danger with working on HV electrics that are typically above and beyond what you would find when working with gasoline or diesel (mostly out of a lack of education of the public at this point). I even understand the premise of restricting access to those components to authorized centers. Again, I think they are overly tight with it at this time.

Wonder what impact the lack of service for salvaged vehicles will be in the long term for Tesla. It was predicted that Ford F150's would have serious troubles getting repair shops to fix damaged panels when they moved from steel to aluminum. I don't think that has really come to fruition. I'm curious what will become of junkyards in the future with crashed electrics sitting around everywhere. Need an electrician to go in there with you to find a door panel for your 50yr old Model 3 in 2070?

 

[thefortunes]

There are reports all over the place that contradict this. Here's just one from 2018.

Perhaps the wording of totaled is the issue, as an insurance write off certainly doesn't always mean the car isn't easily repairable. Had a CTS-V that was "totaled". Required a new HID headlamp assembly, some hardware, bumper cover and fender. Car wasn't financially worth rearing, but the damage was what most would consider to be minimal. IMO Tesla is being overly "tight" with what they allow back into the market. Unsure the reasoning, whether it's brand image they are worried about, or what the motivation is. It's not a good look for them though IMO.



I get there is some inherent danger with working on HV electrics that are typically above and beyond what you would find when working with gasoline or diesel (mostly out of a lack of education of the public at this point). I even understand the premise of restricting access to those components to authorized centers. Again, I think they are overly tight with it at this time.

Wonder what impact the lack of service for salvaged vehicles will be in the long term for Tesla. It was predicted that Ford F150's would have serious troubles getting repair shops to fix damaged panels when they moved from steel to aluminum. I don't think that has really come to fruition. I'm curious what will become of junkyards in the future with crashed electrics sitting around everywhere. Need an electrician to go in there with you to find a door panel for your 50yr old Model 3 in 2070?

Yes, my word "totaled" = "salvage" title (i.e. an insurance company total write-off).

The vehicle in your link was a salvage title, purchased at auction. I do think it was shitty for Tesla to remove the supercharging without warning.

As I see it, until the new owner (rebuilder or someone who purchases from a rebuilder) brings the totaled/salvage vehicle to Tesla for them to inspect, how can Tesla know the extent of the damage that caused the write-off by the insurance company? How do they know that there wasn't some hidden damage to the battery or electronics which could cause a problem upon DC charging?

In my opinion (others are free to disagree) they are being prudent by removing the risk until inspected.

The beauty is that the free market has filled this void. Salvage Teslas are snapped up and parted out (or, in some cases rebuilt, but as I understand it they are more valuable to part out).

I haven't done it, but I bet you would be hard-pressed to find ANY Teslas in a junkyard.

 

[swatski]

Unsure the reasoning, whether it's brand image they are worried about, or what the motivation is. It's not a good look for them though IMO.

I see it in the opposite way... As a potential buyer I am totally in favor of Tesla not allowing salvaged vehicles or major parts back in the primary market. To me it’s akin to buying a refurbished Mac, done that. Once.

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[2kwik4u]

I see it in the opposite way... As a potential buyer I am totally in favor of Tesla not allowing salvaged vehicles or major parts back in the primary market. To me it’s akin to buying a refurbished Mac, done that. Once.
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I think refurbished (when properly done) is a fine avenue for many things. I've seen a dozen restored "lightly flooded and salvaged" cars run through the family with little to no problems outside of normal wear/tear. I've stopped purchasing new electronics (cellphones, and appliances mainly) opting for the refurbished units. I've only ever purchased 2 new vehicles, the rest have been used and arguably "refurbished" at some level. Sometimes as deeply as replaced engines and transmissions, other times only a cursory cleaning......At some level isn't your boat going to be "refurbished" here soon? How do you reconcile the difference between quality repairs made by an authorized shop, and something being "totaled" and being removed from the market?

In my opinion (others are free to disagree) they are being prudent by removing the risk until inspected.

I think removing the risk from the things they own is fine, and honestly, fairly prudent as well. However, I think they overstep when removing access to ALL fast chargers, even ones outside their ownership/control. They are protecting the brand at that point, not any liability they may have. Perhaps it's a "safety first" kind of thing, but it feels like an overreach to protect me from myself in most regards. I'm not sure what the right answer is here honestly. I can see both sides.