Adding a second battery and charging relay on my 2021 AR190

[JayHat]

Hi y’all! I neeeed your help! I recently took my boat back to the dealership and asked them to add a second battery and an automatic charging relay (ACR) because I want to upgrade the boats stereo this summer and I didn’t want to do so on just the one battery. In my mind the dealer was going to install a blue seas mini add a battery setup…Seemed like a common setup? I guess not? Instead they put in a BEP voltage sensing relay. I was trying to get away from having to switch the batteries from starter to house when at anchor with the ACR. But according the the mechanics notes I will have to switch the selector from 1 to 2 when the motor is not running… ugh!!!
I am not sure if the BEP and the ACR do the same thing exactly, from what I read they are similar?

Also, I paid 600 for this installation including battery, relay, selector switch. To me the install looks like shit and the placement of the relay is terrible. Why would you put electronics on the floor and not mount it next to the selector switch?? It looks like a amateur install and not professional to me. It cuts the storage compartment in half too. I would of put the second battery in line with the existing battery not next to it.. tho yes that was the easiest and fastest place to put it..
It took the shop 14 days to get done with an appointment. They left the boat scuffed and dirty on the inside where they were getting in and out and where they worked on it. Trying not to be a Karen here but I feel ripped off. Check out the pics attached and let me know your thoughts about this installation and if you think I have a worthy argument to tell them I think this was poorly done. If anyone has added a second battery with a charging relay setup please chime in. I’m not electrical guy but I understand the principles. Any pictures you have of your installs would be great to see!

PS the battery they added moves around a lot even with the strap. The tray they used is too big for the battery… is this professional??? Seems like you’d want batteries very secure no? Am I asking too much here? please leave your thoughts on this.

 

[Crob83]

I'm with you the placement of the relay and battery makes absolutely no sense at all.

 

[Dave burke]

I’ll defer to the experts but this doesn’t look that bad to me. I can tell you the BEP looks the same as the one in my factory two battery set up. Switch is different but I see 1+2 so does mean they’re both charging at the same time? If I’m running off the house battery for an extended time, I’d turn off the starting switch. As long as you can do that, I think you’ll be ok.

$600 seems a little pricey but when you add up the battery, switches, wire and labor, it doesn’t strike me as outlandish.

Did you get a written estimate including the type of parts they would use? If they didn’t do what they said they would, I’d certainly be going after them.

 

[Beachbummer]

So, I installed this set up in my SX230. I think it's the best possible set up, I'll share how I use it and why:

No such thing as house battery. You have current/main battery and backup/redundant battery. Current Battery is whatever the switch is set to, backup is the other one. (don't use the both position normally, or you defeat the whole thing)

Once you are running on Main/Current battery, you are charging both, but as soon as you power off, you are draining only one, the main, so if you EVER run out, just switch to your backup battery.

Once every month,2 weeks, quarter, however often you want to validate the other battery is still good, switch the switch to the OTHER battery, flipping your main and back up from then on...this way you confirm 100% the back up battery is good, and you use it as your current battery for the next period. Both batteries are always charging when running, but once engines are stopped, only the main is being drawn from.

You have ultimate reliability and zero messing with the switch, except to verify the system as often/little as you wish.


Normal Scenario...Touch nothing, Main starts boat, both batteries recharge, only main Discharges with normal drain.

Stuff happens scenario (Left lights on, ran out of juice at the sandbar...) Flip to other battery, nothing happened, carry on.


To me, this is the best possible set up and outcome with least things that can go wrong, and simple switch to manage.

 

[JayHat]

I’ll defer to the experts but this doesn’t look that bad to me. I can tell you the BEP looks the same as the one in my factory two battery set up. Switch is different but I see 1+2 so does mean they’re both charging at the same time? If I’m running off the house battery for an extended time, I’d turn off the starting switch. As long as you can do that, I think you’ll be ok.

$600 seems a little pricey but when you add up the battery, switches, wire and labor, it doesn’t strike me as outlandish.

Did you get a written estimate including the type of parts they would use? If they didn’t do what they said they would, I’d certainly be going after them.

it’s not that the 600 was unexpected. It’s that the install looks sloppy. The second battery moves around a lot and I would not consider it secure. The VSR on the floor does not seem right either. There is room for it to be mounted next to the selector switch. Secondly, there are no boots over the positive battery terminals to prevent arcs. Minor detail but this is the dealerships work and it should be done right. I expect it to be done to make it look like it was stock from Yamaha that’s what I was will to pay 600 for a professional install.
Placement of the battery cut the storage compartment in half.. why would you not locate the battery in line with the existing to keep as much of the storage a compartment useable as possible

So, I installed this set up in my SX230. I think it's the best possible set up, I'll share how I use it and why:

No such thing as house battery. You have current/main battery and backup/redundant battery. Current Battery is whatever the switch is set to, backup is the other one. (don't use the both position normally, or you defeat the whole thing)

Once you are running on Main/Current battery, you are charging both, but as soon as you power off, you are draining only one, the main, so if you EVER run out, just switch to your backup battery.

Once every month,2 weeks, quarter, however often you want to validate the other battery is still good, switch the switch to the OTHER battery, flipping your main and back up from then on...this way you confirm 100% the back up battery is good, and you use it as your current battery for the next period. Both batteries are always charging when running, but once engines are stopped, only the main is being drawn from.

You have ultimate reliability and zero messing with the switch, except to verify the system as often/little as you wish.


Normal Scenario...Touch nothing, Main starts boat, both batteries recharge, only main Discharges with normal drain.

Stuff happens scenario (Left lights on, ran out of juice at the sandbar...) Flip to other battery, nothing happened, carry on.


To me, this is the best possible set up and outcome with least things that can go wrong, and simple switch to manage.

how did you set up a battery maintainer for your system? For when you’re storing it for long periods of time?

 

[haknslash]

If it were my boat I would have gone over the install and made sure everyone was on the same page before work was started. That way it’s done how you wanted it and clear direction for the installer. I used to install car stereos and shit back in another life and communication is key on the front end. I understand your frustration as it isn’t a clean install IMO but this could have been avoided. The good news is cleaning it up shouldn’t be a big ordeal in the end but yea not fun having to redo someone else’s work.

 

[Beachbummer]

how did you set up a battery maintainer for your system? For when you’re storing it for long periods of time?

I added a switch to the ground line of the relay to the helm. If I want all juice to go to one battery, or I want to use the on board charger, I switch the relay if e.

 

[FSH 210 Sport]

So first of all, if I’m seeing it correctly, the dealer hooked up the DVSR correctly in so far as the battery on the right we will call this battery #2 will always get charged when the boat is running when battery #1 on the left is selected. Battery #1 will be the start and house battery, and battery #2 will will get charged but will get isolated when the voltage drops to 12.7 VDC. Therefore, battery #2 will always be charged and ready to use if Battery #1 gets discharged enough to not be able to start the engine. If you were out and battery #1 got too low to start the engine, simply select 1&2 and start the motor, then put the selector back to battery #1 and battery #1 will now get charged by the running engine.

This is the DVSR they installed on your boat. Digital Voltage Sensing Relay (DVSR) 12/24V




This is the switch that came stock on my 2020 210 FSH.. really simple and clean. It is bolted to the vertical engine bulkhead.

Square Battery Distribution Cluster for Single Engine with Two Battery Banks

The 716-SQ-140A-DVSR is an ideal replacement for a battery selector switch. Just remove the selector switch and connect the existing wires to a 716 cluster, no extra wires are required for a fully automatic battery management system. To be used in single outboard dual battery bank or single...

www.bepmarine.com

With this system, you turn both the house and start batteries on, and go boating. The DVSR / VSR closes paralleling the house and start batteries when the start battery reaches 13.2 VDC and stays closed until the voltage drops to 12.7VDC at which time the DVSR opens isolating the two batteries. This way your start battery is always charge and ready to go, and the house battery powers all of the accessories. Having said that, the wiring on your boat is probably different than mine as it was intended to have just one battery.

The nice thing about the 716 switch is that it has an emergency parallel switch just in case you needed more start power from the house battery.

You don’t need us to tell you that was a crappy install… especially since the other Yamaha boats like mine come set up with a much cleaner install in a smaller amount of space. I don’t know what if anything the dealer will do for you now since most of the time electrical parts are non returnable…

There is no reason why you cannot put your batteries in battery boxes to keep any acid from getting on whatever may end up on that storage compartment.

On my 210 FSH the batteries are next to each on the outside of the compartment. You could get the BEP 716 and install it yourself. However, you will need to breakout all of the accessory wiring and land those wires on the House switch, and isolate the engine or start wires and land them on the Start switch.

If you do not want to mess with having to manually switch the batteries, you will have to go with the 716 type of switch.

If you do not mind rotating or alternating the use batteries you could go with the switch below and it would clean up the install greatly and you could tuck everything together in the back of that compartment to free up that wasted space.

Battery Distribution Cluster for Single Engine with Two Battery Banks

The 714-140A-DVSR uses a dual sensing DVSR (710-140A). This system ensures that you will always have a fully charged reserve battery. When the switch is in position one, battery one becomes the sensing battery for the VSR. Battery two, which is in isolation, is charged through the VSR when the...

www.bepmarine.com

Personally, I‘d go with the 716 switch, turn on both when you get ready to use the boat and not even worry about it.

 

[Beachbummer]

But is the advantage of 716 switch type really worth it?

If you start battery fails after arrival, and you happen to drain the house battery, or the house battery has been marginal for a while and it doesn't start the boat, then you are SOL. with the 1,2,All switch, the backup battery is always reserved and hopefully has recently been tested to run the boat. For me, this is why this install is more likely to save you if something goes wrong.

Only an opinion, I understand the fancier switch does support potentially a bigger/different deep cycle battery for House use, but why not have both be of that kind anyway? It just seems to be a lot of trouble vs the simpler single switch way.

 

[FSH 210 Sport]

But is the advantage of 716 switch type really worth it?

If you start battery fails after arrival, and you happen to drain the house battery, or the house battery has been marginal for a while and it doesn't start the boat, then you are SOL. with the 1,2,All switch, the backup battery is always reserved and hopefully has recently been tested to run the boat. For me, this is why this install is more likely to save you if something goes wrong.

Only an opinion, I understand the fancier switch does support potentially a bigger/different deep cycle battery for House use, but why not have both be of that kind anyway? It just seems to be a lot of trouble vs the simpler single switch way.

Is the 716 worth it? Absolutely.

The 716 just uses an automatic switch instead of a manual switch like the 1,2 1&2 switch. With the 716 in my boat you turn on both the start and house switches and you‘re done with battery switches for as long as the boat is on the water.

In the scenario you proposed above there is no difference engine operationally speaking between the 1,2,1&2 switch and the 716 switch, the 716 switch system always has a battery isolated and dedicated only to engine starting. With 1,2,1&2 switch in the scenario you proposed above if the isolated battery #2 ( start battery in 716 system) failed after arrival and you ran down battery #1 you would be out of luck getting started.

It is true that the 716 system has a separate switch to parallel the house and start in an emergency. This design also has an advantage in that the accessory systems are not exposed to voltage transients when the engines are started since the house battery is isolated from the start battery during start up.

 

[Beachbummer]

Thanks for responding, and your thoughts. I think I have my mind made up and like the back up nature of the simpler system, so I admit after reading your well thought out argument, i still would pick the simpler set up if I had to install again, but your generous write up will help others reach their own conclusions with your perspective.

 

[FSH 210 Sport]

Thanks for responding, and your thoughts. I think I have my mind made up and like the back up nature of the simpler system, so I admit after reading your well thought out argument, i still would pick the simpler set up if I had to install again, but your generous write up will help others reach their own conclusions with your perspective.

You are welcome! I’m glad my write up was useful ! With either system, its just good to have two batteries with one in reserve. My Dad had a Sea Ray 18’ bow rider that he bought bought back in the early 80’s, it was a sweet little boat with a 4 cylinder volvo gasoline engine, fresh water cooled with a Volvo outdrive. Anyway, that boat came with two batteries and a 1, 2, 1&2 battery switch. I remember he would run the boat in All or 1&2 until he stopped, then he’d switch to either 1 or 2. It served him well and he was never left stranded. I do find it kind of amazing that all boats do not come with a start only battery, or at least the 1,2 1&2 two battery set up.

Happy New Year ! And great boating in 22!

 

[marcham]

What do you want the 2nd battery to do? A backup starting source or a seperate power source for house loads? You're wired for a backup starting source.

With your current setup, you can just stay on 1 and switch to 2 when needed if it won't start, in fact, I would use 1 on odd days and then switch to 2 on even days to equalize battery wear and know that both work. No need to switch between 1 and 2 during the day.

Looks like what they did would be about an hour's work, plus the time required to get the boat in/out of the shop. I wouldn't say they did a bad job, it looks fine to me, although I might have approached it differently. That's the advantage of doing your own work. Alternatively, you have to be there when they do it.... not that different from home renovations.

 

[zipper]

it’s not that the 600 was unexpected. It’s that the install looks sloppy. The second battery moves around a lot and I would not consider it secure. The VSR on the floor does not seem right either. There is room for it to be mounted next to the selector switch. Secondly, there are no boots over the positive battery terminals to prevent arcs. Minor detail but this is the dealerships work and it should be done right. I expect it to be done to make it look like it was stock from Yamaha that’s what I was will to pay 600 for a professional install.
Placement of the battery cut the storage compartment in half.. why would you not locate the battery in line with the existing to keep as much of the storage a compartment useable as possible

how did you set up a battery maintainer for your system? For when you’re storing it for long periods of time?

There is a CFR code of federal regulations that governs batteries and mounting. Your concerns are addressed in it. If you are on a boating recess, like most Northeners, take it back and have them bring the install up to CG regulations. If they are dismissive, you can show them the reg. and ask if they are familar with it. Putting boots on the positive terminal is absolutly necessary.

 

[haknslash]

@zipper that DOT regulation is for manufacturer’s rather than the dealer. Most boat MFG’s get around this because batteries are not typically installed at the manufacturer.

You can see it falls under the Manufacturer Requirements section (if installed) https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/CFR-2006-title33-vol2/pdf/CFR-2006-title33-vol2-sec183-420.pdf

Hopefully OP can simply take it back to the dealer and express he is not happy and they‘ll fix it. That being said and judging by their work, it’s probably not worth the hassle of taking the boat there and back wasting gas and time. I’d just fix it myself but also let the dealer know it was not a satisfactory install. Maybe they will offer some discounts on next service or toys If he fixes it himself.

 

[Julian]

Not a great install for sure. I've learned this the hard way too....if you have a dealer do something, you need to spec it out with a parts list and drawing! Otherwise they go the cheapest simplest route possible.

 

[zipper]

@zipper that DOT regulation is for manufacturer’s rather than the dealer. Most boat MFG’s get around this because batteries are not typically installed at the manufacturer.

You can see it falls under the Manufacturer’s Requirement (if installed) https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/CFR-2006-title33-vol2/pdf/CFR-2006-title33-vol2-sec183-420.pdf

Hopefully OP can simply take it back to the dealer and express he is not happy and they‘ll fix it. That being said and judging by their work, it’s probably not worth the hassle of taking the boat there and back wasting gas and time. I’d just fix it myself but also let the dealer know it was not a satisfactory install. Maybe they will offer some discounts on next service or toys If he fixes it himself.

What a crock of feces. They installed the battery cable to connect to the battery. That cable should be installed per the regs. with a boot. If not and they want to leave the positive cable bare, then supply a battery box which is better than a boot. Then it is in compliance.

 

[haknslash]

What a crock of feces. They installed the battery cable to connect to the battery. That cable should be installed per the regs. with a boot. If not and they want to leave the positive cable bare, then supply a battery box which is better than a boot. Then it is in compliance.

Unfortunately it is what it is. Think about all the car and marine audio stereo shops that install amps and run power cables. Most of those don’t add a rubber boot to encapsulate the ring terminal. Not saying I agree with their install at all, just saying it is what it is and this is why it’s important to go over an install with the installer and shop. This goes for boats, cars, bikes etc. I know most people don’t think of this when they hand over their vehicle for work but as Julian said most shop installers are just going to do the simplest install to get it out the door unless A) they actually take price in their work ( a rarity these days) or B) you go over the install so all expectations are known and understood on the front end. I’m by no means blaming the OP and as I said most people would expect the installer to do quality installs 100% of the time since that is their job but sadly that is not the reality and it’s best to give some direction, ask questions etc to avoid these kinds of results and issues altogether. I know this doesn’t help the OP now but perhaps it will help someone else in the future. Having a plan or at least setting the bar for expectations upon com-petition will go a long ways with the installer and shop.

 

[motomandan]

Not installed as per ABYC standards for you safety. Also if there ever is an issue the Insurance Company could argue the claim.

BATTERIES:

CFR Sec. 183.420 Batteries 33 CFR 183 Subpart I | Boat Electrical Systems | New Boatbuilders Home Page

Each battery must be installed so that metallic objects cannot come into contact with positive terminals. How can this be accomplished?

Battery Boxes

Boots on the positive terminal.

An insulating cover over the terminals.

There are other ways. The whole point is that you do not want a wrench or screwdriver of something metal that falls on the battery (like a metal portable gas tank) to come in contact with the positive terminal. This could cause a large arc and possibly a fire or explosion. It is best avoided.

 

[haknslash]

@motomandan you have to read the DOT CFR closely. That is for manufacturer‘s (If it’s installed) or part of the PDI process at their dealer per mfg’s spec. Anything aftermarket or after PoS does not mean dealers, car audio shops, friends install etc are held to the same standard and regulation. Notice that your link is also for “new boat builder“.