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Batteries <electric vehicle battery>

FSH 210 Sport

Jetboaters Admiral
Messages
6,970
Reaction score
8,345
Points
482
Location
Tranquility Base
Boat Make
Yamaha
Year
2020
Boat Model
FSH Sport
Boat Length
21
Got this from a friend of mine… pretty much spot on.

Batteries
The packed auditorium was abuzz with questions about the address; nobody seemed to know what to expect. The only hint was a large aluminum block sitting on a sturdy table on the stage. When the crowd settled down, a scholarly-looking man walked out and put his hand on the shiny block, “Good evening,” he said, “I am here to introduce NMC532-X,” and he patted the block, “we call him NM for short,” and the man smiled proudly. “NM is a typical electric vehicle (EV) car battery in every way except one; we programmed him to send signals of the internal movements of his electrons when charging, discharging, and in several other conditions. We wanted to know what it feels like to be a battery.We don’t know how it happened, but NM began to talk after we downloaded the program. Despite this ability, we put him in a car for a year and then asked him if he’d like to do presentations about batteries. He readily agreed on the condition he could say whatever he wanted. We thought that was fine, and so, without further ado, I’ll turn the floor over to NM,” the man turned and walked off the stage.


“Good evening,” NM said. He had a slightly affected accent, and when he spoke, he lit up in different colors. “That cheeky woman on the marquee was my idea,” he said. “Were she not there, along with ‘naked’ in the title, I’d likely be speaking to an empty auditorium! I also had them add ‘shocking’ because it’s a favorite word amongst us batteries.” He flashed a light blue color as he laughed. “Sorry,” NM chuckled, then continued, “Three days ago, at the start of my last lecture, three people walked out. I suppose they were disappointed there would be no dancing girls. But here is what I noticed about them. One was wearing a battery-powered hearing aid, one tapped on his battery-powered cell phone as he left, and a third got into his car, which would not start without a battery. So I’d like you to think about your day for a moment; how many batteries do you rely on?” He paused for a full minute which gave us time to count our batteries. Then he went on, “Now, it is not elementary to ask, ‘what is a battery?’ I think Tesla said it best when they called us Energy Storage Systems. That’s important. We do not make electricity – we store electricity produced elsewhere, primarily by coal, uranium, natural gas-powered plants, or diesel-fueled generators. So to say an EV is a zero-emission vehicle is not at all valid. Also, since forty percent of the electricity generated in the U.S. is from coal-fired plants, it follows that forty percent of the EVs on the road are coal-powered, do you see?”

He flashed blue again. “Einstein’s formula, E=MC2, tells us it takes the same amount of energy to move a five thousand pound gasoline-driven automobile a mile as it does an electric one. The only question again is what produces the power? To reiterate, it does not come from the battery; the battery is only the storage device, like a gas tank in a car.” He lit up red when he said that, and I sensed he was smiling. Then he continued in blue and orange. “Mr. Elkay introduced me as NMC532. If I were the battery from your computer mouse, Elkay would introduce me as double-A, if from your cell phone as CR2032, and so on. We batteries all have the same name depending on our design. By the way, the ‘X’ in my name stands for ‘experimental.’


There are two orders of batteries, rechargeable, and single-use. The most common single-use batteries are A, AA, AAA, C, D. 9V, and lantern types. Those dry-cell species use zinc, manganese, lithium, silver oxide, or zinc and carbon to store electricity chemically. Please note they all contain toxic, heavy metals.Rechargeable batteries only differ in their internal materials, usually lithium-ion, nickel-metal oxide, and nickel-cadmium.The United States uses three billion of these two battery types a year, and most are not recycled; they end up in landfills. California is the only state which requires all batteries be recycled. If you throw your small, used batteries in the trash, here is what happens to them.
All batteries are self-discharging. That means even when not in use, they leak tiny amounts of energy. You have likely ruined a flashlight or two from an old ruptured battery. When a battery runs down and can no longer power a toy or light, you think of it as dead; well, it is not. It continues to leak small amounts of electricity. As the chemicals inside it run out, pressure builds inside the battery’s metal casing, and eventually, it cracks. The metals left inside then ooze out. The ooze in your ruined flashlight is toxic, and so is the ooze that will inevitably leak from every battery in a landfill. All batteries eventually rupture; it just takes rechargeable batteries longer to end up in the landfill.
In addition to dry cell batteries, there are also wet cell ones used in automobiles, boats, and motorcycles. The good thing about those is, ninety percent of them are recycled. Unfortunately, we do not yet know how to recycle batteries like me or care to dispose of single-use ones properly.


But that is not half of it. For those of you excited about electric cars and a green revolution, I want you to take a closer look at batteries and also windmills and solar panels. These three technologies share what we call environmentally destructive embedded costs.”
NM got redder as he spoke. “Everything manufactured has two costs associated with it, embedded costs and operating costs. I will explain embedded costs using a can of baked beans as my subject. In this scenario, baked beans are on sale, so you jump in your car and head for the grocery store. Sure enough, there they are on the shelf for $1.75 a can. As you head to the checkout, you begin to think about the embedded costs in the can of beans. The first cost is the diesel fuel the farmer used to plow the field, till the ground, harvest the beans, and transport them to the food processor. Not only is his diesel fuel an embedded cost, so are the costs to build the tractors, combines, and trucks. In addition, the farmer might use a nitrogen fertilizer made from natural gas. Next is the energy costs of cooking the beans, heating the building, transporting the workers, and paying for the vast amounts of electricity used to run the plant. The steel can holding the beans is also an embedded cost. Making the steel can requires mining taconite, shipping it by boat, extracting the iron, placing it in a coal-fired blast furnace, and adding carbon. Then it’s back on another truck to take the beans to the grocery store. Finally, add in the cost of the gasoline for your car.
But wait - can you guess one of the highest but rarely acknowledged embedded costs?” NM said, then gave us about thirty seconds to make our guesses. Then he flashed his lights and said, “It’s the depreciation on the 5000 pound car you used to transport one pound of canned beans!”

NM took on a golden glow, and I thought he might have winked. He said, “But that can of beans is nothing compared to me! I am hundreds of times more complicated. My embedded costs not only come in the form of energy use; they come as environmental destruction, pollution, disease, child labor, and the inability to be recycled.” He paused, “I weigh one thousand pounds, and as you see, I am about the size of a travel trunk.” NM’s lights showed he was serious. “I contain twenty-five pounds of lithium, sixty pounds of nickel, 44 pounds of manganese, 30 pounds cobalt, 200 pounds of copper, and 400 pounds of aluminum, steel, and plastic. Inside me are 6,831 individual lithium-ion cells
It should concern you that all those toxic components come from mining. For instance, to manufacture each auto battery like me, you must process 25,000 pounds of brine for the lithium, 30,000 pounds of ore for the cobalt, 5,000 pounds of ore for the nickel, and 25,000 pounds of ore for copper. All told, you dig up 500,000 pounds of the earth’s crust for just - one - battery.


He let that one sink in, then added, “I mentioned disease and child labor a moment ago. Here’s why. Sixty-eight percent of the world’s cobalt, a significant part of a battery, comes from the Congo. Their mines have no pollution controls and they employ children who die from handling this toxic material. Should we factor in these diseased kids as part of the cost of driving an electric car?”


NM’s red and orange light made it look like he was on fire. “Finally,” he said, “I’d like to leave you with these thoughts. California is building the largest battery in the world near San Francisco, and they intend to power it from solar panels and windmills. They claim this is the ultimate in being ‘green,’ but it is not! This construction project is creating an environmental disaster. Let me tell you why.
The main problem with solar arrays is the chemicals needed to process silicate into the silicon used in the panels. To make pure enough silicon requires processing it with hydrochloric acid, sulfuric acid, nitric acid, hydrogen fluoride, trichloroethane, and acetone. In addition, they also need gallium, arsenide, copper-indium-gallium- diselenide, and cadmium-telluride, which also are highly toxic. Silicon dust is a hazard to the workers, and the panels cannot be recycled.

Windmills are the ultimate in embedded costs and environmental destruction. Each weighs 1688 tons (the equivalent of 23 houses) and contains 1300 tons of concrete, 295 tons of steel, 48 tons of iron, 24 tons of fiberglass, and the hard to extract rare earths neodymium, praseodymium, and dysprosium. Each blade weighs 81,000 pounds and will last 15 to 20 years, at which time it must be replaced. We cannot recycle used blades. Sadly, both solar arrays and windmills kill birds, bats, sea life, and migratory insects.


NM lights dimmed, and he quietly said, “There may be a place for these technologies, but you must look beyond the myth of zero emissions. I predict EVs and windmills will be abandoned once the embedded environmental costs of making and replacing them become apparent.
I’m trying to do my part with these lectures. As you can see, if I had entitled this talk “The Embedded Costs of Going Green,” who would have come? But thank you for your attention, good night, and good luck.”
NM’s lights went out, and he was quiet, like a regular battery.
 
Your friend should be a author.
 
Yeah, electric vehicles are for metro city dwellers who only have a car as a novelty. I need to drive farther than the 18th tee every day. The Tesla Plaid is a sweet ride, but totally useless for the majority of American drivers. I think a third of Americans forget, that the rest of us live too far away from things to be forced into driving glorified golf carts. Towing a boat with an EV would drop about 60% of it’s range, making it even more useless for all of us. 50% of the world’s population lives on just over 1% of it’s total combined land mass. These are the people who are trying to force EV’s on everyone, because for them, it makes perfect sense. They are crowded, don’t have very far to travel, and have no grasp on the actual amount of vacant space on this earth.
 
I posted this thread a while back.. https://jetboaters.net/threads/conversion-to-lifepo-batteries.35834/

For me, its the performance of those types of batteries for a given equal size to lead acid, and their weight is icing on the cake so to speak. I’m still trying “weigh” out the advantages and disadvantages of those batteries, for what I have in mind the LiFePo’s are a definite game changer. When I posed the question to my intended manufacturer about where the cobalt was coming from and whether or not child labor was used to produce the cobalt I got crickets…it is something I wrestle with. The human and environmental aspects of these batteries is something I discovered in my research when my company was contemplating a 32MWh battery. As Milton Freedman said, “there’s no such thing as a free lunch”.
 
Edit:

Just opened my email and saw this.. looks like they are trying to be responsible..

E187ED06-7792-430D-9B86-48754ADD91BA.jpeg
 
Yeah, electric vehicles are for metro city dwellers who only have a car as a novelty. I need to drive farther than the 18th tee every day. The Tesla Plaid is a sweet ride, but totally useless for the majority of American drivers. I think a third of Americans forget, that the rest of us live too far away from things to be forced into driving glorified golf carts. Towing a boat with an EV would drop about 60% of it’s range, making it even more useless for all of us. 50% of the world’s population lives on just over 1% of it’s total combined land mass. These are the people who are trying to force EV’s on everyone, because for them, it makes perfect sense. They are crowded, don’t have very far to travel, and have no grasp on the actual amount of vacant space on this earth.

I drive my golf cart 130 miles a day mostly at 80 MPH when I’m not stuck in traffic. Since I live in a snowy state I chose the upgraded model with a full enclosure.
 
Yeah, electric vehicles are for metro city dwellers who only have a car as a novelty. I need to drive farther than the 18th tee every day. The Tesla Plaid is a sweet ride, but totally useless for the majority of American drivers. I think a third of Americans forget, that the rest of us live too far away from things to be forced into driving glorified golf carts. Towing a boat with an EV would drop about 60% of it’s range, making it even more useless for all of us. 50% of the world’s population lives on just over 1% of it’s total combined land mass. These are the people who are trying to force EV’s on everyone, because for them, it makes perfect sense. They are crowded, don’t have very far to travel, and have no grasp on the actual amount of vacant space on this earth.
I'm curious where you get this information. Most studies show that the average miles driven by Americans per day is around 25 miles/day. Since most new electric cars now have a range of >150 miles, this is plenty for the vast majority of Americans. Plently of EVs have >200 miles range, and some (more all the time) have >300. Sure, this won't cover every driving scenario, but is probably covers 80% of Americans.

Regarding your towing comment - towing with an EV wouldn't be useless for all of us. Frankly I'll bet that many people towing their boat tow less than 100 miles round trip to their ramp. This is perfectly doable for most truck being built.

Chevy just announced the latest EV - The Chevy Blazer. The SS model will have 0-60 in <4 seconds and a range of over 300 miles. I went to reserve one, and all their reservations are filled (less than 10 days from annoucement).

Now back to my search for battery recommendations for my boat!
 
I'm curious where you get this information. Most studies show that the average miles driven by Americans per day is around 25 miles/day. Since most new electric cars now have a range of >150 miles, this is plenty for the vast majority of Americans. Plently of EVs have >200 miles range, and some (more all the time) have >300. Sure, this won't cover every driving scenario, but is probably covers 80% of Americans.

Regarding your towing comment - towing with an EV wouldn't be useless for all of us. Frankly I'll bet that many people towing their boat tow less than 100 miles round trip to their ramp. This is perfectly doable for most truck being built.

Chevy just announced the latest EV - The Chevy Blazer. The SS model will have 0-60 in <4 seconds and a range of over 300 miles. I went to reserve one, and all their reservations are filled (less than 10 days from annoucement).

Now back to my search for battery recommendations for my boat!

I highly recommend the Battle Born batteries…
2cnd choice, ReLion
3rd choice, Dakota lithium
 
I'm curious where you get this information. Most studies show that the average miles driven by Americans per day is around 25 miles/day. Since most new electric cars now have a range of >150 miles, this is plenty for the vast majority of Americans. Plently of EVs have >200 miles range, and some (more all the time) have >300. Sure, this won't cover every driving scenario, but is probably covers 80% of Americans.

Regarding your towing comment - towing with an EV wouldn't be useless for all of us. Frankly I'll bet that many people towing their boat tow less than 100 miles round trip to their ramp. This is perfectly doable for most truck being built.

Chevy just announced the latest EV - The Chevy Blazer. The SS model will have 0-60 in <4 seconds and a range of over 300 miles. I went to reserve one, and all their reservations are filled (less than 10 days from annoucement).

Now back to my search for battery recommendations for my boat!
Oops! When I responded to this, I was watching a thread of an EV discussion, and responded to the wrong one. Sorry.
 
Again, what it comes down to is that the US does not have anywhere near the generating capacity to supply a fleet of electric cars, not even half. As well, even if a snap of the fingers would plop down enough generation to supply electric cars, the transmission and distribution system could not support this load. This is physical law.. no amount of “smart grid” is going to fix this.

To wit, most of the grid operators warned there would not be enough generation this summer for the existing load, electric cars battery charging would collapse the grid with their added load.

Also, where is the money that was from sales of motor fuels via excise taxes used for road repair / maintenance going to come from? CA now charges a “surcharge” of $200 a year on EV’s and plug in hybrids on the yearly registration fees for this loss of revenue.

The US should be expanding generation facilities that can supply the “grid” with sources that are reliable and dispatchable and are not subject to intermittency, coal, natural gas both boilers and peaking units, and a radical expansion of nuclear generating facilities. Wind and solar can added to the mix and used when available through dynamic scheduling. At the same time a massive increase / expansion to to the transmission and distribution capacity is needed. Through this expansion of available electrical resource, electricity becomes abundant and less expensive and it’s use will expand.

EV‘s are not zero emissions vehicles, they simply move the source of the emissions of generation away from large population centers. Batteries are not sources of generation, batteries only store electricity generated and transmitted from generating stations.
 
Is there someone outside your house right now trying to force you to buy an EV?
 
Is there someone outside your house right now trying to force you to buy an EV?

Nope just stating the facts Sean.

When I still lived in the city I had considered a Nisaan Leaf…until I saw the price and did more research, that research showed that the charging would have pushed me into Tier 4 billing and that made it fiscally undesirable.

The main problem I have with EV’s is the willful ignorance of the facts, those facts clearly point to the unsustainable nature of them in regards to the current state of the grid in North America. It’s kind of like growing corn for ethanol wherein there is 1.3 units of energy in for every 1 unit of energy out-not sustainable-but good for agribusiness and all the fed subsides they get via the mandating of ethanol in fuel. All so that ethanol and its 40,000 btu’s can be put into 95,000 btu gasoline to allegedly make cars run cleaner. If you look at the labeling at the pump it states “contains up to 10% ethanol” that’s because it cannot be run at 10% in the summertime or it increases NOx, and recently the fed has removed that restriction and wants to increase the amount to 15%. I personally think that all vehicles, especially gasoline powered vehicles and their inherently higher NOx production should have SCR systems (DEF) like diesel powered vehicles do to radically reduce the NOx, by cracking the NOx into N2

When talking about Ev’s and the claims of zero emissions I’m often reminded of this quote.

There are those that base their policies in reality,
then there are those that try to make reality fit their policies,
the latter of which are responsible for the greatest horrors of the 20th century.
 
Again, what it comes down to is that the US does not have anywhere near the generating capacity to supply a fleet of electric cars, not even half. As well, even if a snap of the fingers would plop down enough generation to supply electric cars, the transmission and distribution system could not support this load. This is physical law.. no amount of “smart grid” is going to fix this.

To wit, most of the grid operators warned there would not be enough generation this summer for the existing load, electric cars battery charging would collapse the grid with their added load.

Also, where is the money that was from sales of motor fuels via excise taxes used for road repair / maintenance going to come from? CA now charges a “surcharge” of $200 a year on EV’s and plug in hybrids on the yearly registration fees for this loss of revenue.

The US should be expanding generation facilities that can supply the “grid” with sources that are reliable and dispatchable and are not subject to intermittency, coal, natural gas both boilers and peaking units, and a radical expansion of nuclear generating facilities. Wind and solar can added to the mix and used when available through dynamic scheduling. At the same time a massive increase / expansion to to the transmission and distribution capacity is needed. Through this expansion of available electrical resource, electricity becomes abundant and less expensive and it’s use will expand.

EV‘s are not zero emissions vehicles, they simply move the source of the emissions of generation away from large population centers. Batteries are not sources of generation, batteries only store electricity generated and transmitted from generating stations.

Supporting Data? The latest I've seen is that the grid is just fine for EVs.
 
Supporting Data? The latest I've seen is that the grid is just fine for EVs.

It is not. Those are lies put out by either people who believe the illusion they have created for themselves at best, or others with nefarious intent.

Here is a simple example. CA’s highest demand was recorded in June of 2005 at 50,205 MWs for HE17 (the hour ending at 5 pm).

If you take half of the registered vehicles in CA which is 17,000,000, times 3500 watts which is your basic level 2 charger and not a super charger, you get 59,500,000,000, divide that by 1,000,000 you get 59,500 MW’s or more than double the historic all time high. CA currently cannot keep the lights on reliably at a system load of 49,000 MW’s. and again, the transmission and distribution struggles and fails at those load levels. Combine that with the time of day that chargers would be operating and now there is an explosive rise in electricity rates due to a peak that is higher than the day peak.

Some will argue that not all of them will charged every day etc…, but, the system has to be designed to support that demand With sufficient reserves to avoid a cascading system failure.

Again, I think that if people want to drive electric cars good for them. I’m just pointing out the fact that facts that the grid will not support them in its current state. As well as the fallacy of them being zero emissions.
 
Again, I think that if people want to drive electric cars good for them. I’m just pointing out the fact that facts that the grid will not support them in its current state. As well as the fallacy of them being zero emissions.

You're not spitting facts, you're spitting straw man arguments that no one has proposed except the anti-EV side of discussion (who continually invite themselves in despite not actually being interested in it).

- Grid can't handle a 100% EV population today? Duh. Grids expand, modernize, and adapt all the time. The standard home used to get a 60AMP panel, now its 200 or more - we improved the infrastructure.
- Some states are charging a minor fee to fund road maintenance since you aren't buying gas? Duh. That $200 fee in CA pays for itself after you don't buy about 150 gallons of fuel.
- There are emissions involved in building an EV? Duh. There are emissions involved in creating electricity? Duh. No one has claimed otherwise. Is there a net reduction in emissions comparing two similar EVs? Absolutely. Is it better to use electricity generated at a 'dirty' coal plant than it is to spit it our your tailpipe? Sure is. Will electricity generation continue to trend toward cleaner (including nuclear) and renewable sources? Of course. Are we ready to turn off the oil spigot? Absolutely not.

Its progress toward frankly a better form of transportation. I like ICE vehicles too, but for 90% of my and your use, an EV would be a better choice. Since we're all people of above-average means, its not an unreasonable proposition to have an ICE and an EV in the driveway. It will be a long time before everyone is 'forced' into an EV (spoiler, they won't be, and they couldn't be until the grid and charging network is massively improved).
 
Sean,

There’s no reason to use derogatory terms when discussing this topic. Just state the facts and your opinions respectfully. It only lessons the veracity of your point of view and opinions when you use derogatory and odhominem attacks. Or as Socrates said, when the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser.

I don’t spit facts I state them, nor am I a straw man from the anti EV side. Like you I’m entitled to my own opinion but not my own facts.

Anything I said was not intended as an insult to you and your electric car.

Somewhat contrary to your opinion, the grid is not expanding at a rate consummate with demand growth. For literally decades now the grid has been riding on the prescience of those who designed the system with redundancy and resiliency decades ago.

And unlike you, there are a lot of people out there that do in fact believe that EVs are zero emissions. Those folks are in the same boat as those that think that food comes from the grocery store.

Another fact I forgot to mention was the third harmonic that is induced into the electric system by the chargers themselves and the way that AC is converted into DC by way of capacitors chopping the tops of the sine waves off. This results in a derate of mainly transformers of 75%, this is just another example of the distribution system not being able to handle vehicle charging loads.

Current excise tax in CA is .36 per gallon, the highest in the nation, which works out to 555 gallons of fuel if my math is correct on that. According to 2014 stats avg miles driven per year per capita in CA is 9000 miles. Divide that by 555 and you get 16, which is I assume close to avg mpg. So a bit of a no brainer there on the $200 that the state came up with.

I live in an area who’s sole supply of electricity is from coal, ergo, all the teslas here are coal powered. I always ask myself what’s the point ? But if that’s what folks want and they can afford them good for them. And speaking of affordability, I personally cannot afford an electric vehicle nor would it be a viable vehicle for me. I have one vehicle, my truck accomplishes everything I want it to while getting 22 mpg empty. And if the renewable resources cost was passed directly onto the consumer as it should be instead of hidden as fed subsidies people would have a much different view / opinion on the cost effectiveness of those resources in the IRP and they’re ability to charge an EV’s battery.

The other area of misconception that I have seen is when people think that because they chose to buy “green” electricity at a premium, that they are charging their zero emissions EV with, getting their electricity from wind farms or PV arrays that are hundreds of miles away. And predictably they would get angry with me when I showed them that was not the case.

How do I know these facts? I was a grid operator / manager for 25 years and held NERC’s highest level of certification, before that I worked in distribution and before that I worked in the industrial field of electricity as a journeyman electrician. Math and electrical theory are my guides. I have no emotions other than my passion to have the highest level of reliability and integrity for the grid, and I have disdain for anything that threatens said integrity and reliability, that includes lies of omission and false hoods regarding this subject as well as other subjects in regards to the electrical system.
 
Once you realize that the environment means absolutely nothing to the organizations, and politicians pushing EV’s down everyone’s throat, you’ll be able to see what they really want to achieve by forcing you to switch. The World Economic Forum is a powerful lobbying force, aka political pocket liner for a certain political party. They have stated several times what their ultimate goal is, and you’d be stupid to think they don’t really mean it. They are communists at heart, and have promised to make you their slaves. They want to initially get you to drive (not very far) electric vehicles. Then make your home charging station on a separate meter. “Sorry you’ve driven too much this week already”. “No car or A/C for the weekend”. And this week they stated their ultimate goal, which is no private transportation allowed at all. Zero vehicles for their slaves. First it’s vehicles, and then they’ll push for no private property at all. Remember these are the political party pocket liners who have said…. “In the future you’ll own nothing, and be happy”. “Everything you own will be rented”. The earth will never be clean enough, and you will never be green enough, because they don’t care one bit about the environment. They only care about creating a ruling class, and a servant class, while using the false notion of environmental protection as the tool. If that’s the type of control you want to be subservient to, go ahead. Drive what your masters tell you to. They aren’t planning on stopping at just making you drive golf carts.
 
Once you realize that the environment means absolutely nothing to the organizations, and politicians pushing EV’s down everyone’s throat, you’ll be able to see what they really want to achieve by forcing you to switch. The World Economic Forum is a powerful lobbying force, aka political pocket liner for a certain political party. They have stated several times what their ultimate goal is, and you’d be stupid to think they don’t really mean it. They are communists at heart, and have promised to make you their slaves. They want to initially get you to drive (not very far) electric vehicles. Then make your home charging station on a separate meter. “Sorry you’ve driven too much this week already”. “No car or A/C for the weekend”. And this week they stated their ultimate goal, which is no private transportation allowed at all. Zero vehicles for their slaves. First it’s vehicles, and then they’ll push for no private property at all. Remember these are the political party pocket liners who have said…. “In the future you’ll own nothing, and be happy”. “Everything you own will be rented”. The earth will never be clean enough, and you will never be green enough, because they don’t care one bit about the environment. They only care about creating a ruling class, and a servant class, while using the false notion of environmental protection as the tool. If that’s the type of control you want to be subservient to, go ahead. Drive what your masters tell you to. They aren’t planning on stopping at just making you drive golf carts.

You left this on the boat - Joylife Metallic Bucket Hat Trendy Fisherman Hats Unisex Reversible Packable Cap, Silver at Amazon Women’s Clothing store
 
EV is a good concept if its affordable to everyone and if all country will follow suit.
If US of A converted to say 90% EV at the cost of american paying premium for upfront price.
China and other country will enjoy low fuel price thanks to us lol
 
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