EV's and Cold Weather

[FSH 210 Sport]

Bottom line is a 1-3% increased load each year is certainly something we can cope with. My neighbor installed solar, his energy needs dropped by 60%. Our subdivision has 120 homes, so he cut our use by .5% on his own.

Also, we have excess load overnight, which is when most people charge their EVs. My utility doesn't give any incentive to charge overnight, so I don't pay any attention to this-they'll catch up eventually.

Central electric generation will always be cleaner than millions of small gas/diesel-powered auto in terms of total emmissions. Natural gas and nuclear are clearly great ways to produce power, and renewables are increasing and improving every year.

But I didn't buy my car for climate or emmissions reasons! I bought it because it is a blast to drive! Prices will continue to come down as more manufacturers build better and more attractive vehicles, and the naysays actually drive one. One pedal driving alone makes driving so much nicer-I honestly thought I'd be like "meh, who cares about 1 pedal", but I'm a convert now I've driven with it for a year. But not all EVs have this at this point.

There will be NO EXPONENTIAL increase in demand on the grid as @FSH 210 Sport claimed in his hyperbolic reply. Its manageable, and will result in a better more resilient grid over time.

My response isn’t hyperbolic, it is inclusive of all the parameters that I can recall based on my 35 plus years in the electrical field, all of the classes I took in electrical theory and the application of those principals. I also worked closely with all of the electrical engineers and electrical testers. This is what my response is based in, facts and experience.

 

[2kwik4u]

@FSH 210 Sport

I'm not doubting your expertise in the field, but I think your estimates are off, and I have some questions.

Why do we have to permit home chargers? They run on what amounts to a dryer circuit. Wouldn't the power grid have been permitted for the complete service level of the house (200A or 100A services, etc.?). We're not talking huge kW's of power here. Most are around 11kW or less for home charging. The impact to the grid take-up should be relatively minor, right?

I think this same issue moved along to your calculations for 1/3 of all electric cars plugging in at the same time. Again, they're not all drawing 250kW DC fast charging level power. They're more than likely each drawing closer to 11kW. Quick google show's 31.4mil cars. Lets call 1/2 of that 15mil just for easy math. If all of those cars plugged in at the same time at home, that's a gain of 550MW, NOT 59,000MW. 3 orders of magnitude less than you're estimating. What numbers are you using to estimate demand?

Reading further in about circuit protection, KVA backloading, and other de-rates required for proper operation......I'm curious if the estimates above skewed that significantly. I know it will still need to exist, but I suspect with 3orders of magnitude less draw than expected, it adds much smaller overhead concerns than previously thought.

The NIMBY issue is real. We're Americans it's kind of what we do, despite it clearly being less than stellar for progress. Not sure how to handle that portion of it.

Regardless of the answers, it's interesting discussion. While I don't think it's going to be a walk in the park, and just magically appear, I also don't hold the thought that it's an unsurmountable task. Resources, Time, Effort will all be involved to make the transition. Beyond that, it's likely to cost us money, not make us money; so the driving force will be legislation, not capitalism. With all that said, it's still the right thing to do!

 

[adrianp89]

Replaying to @Julian 's comment regarding naysayers. We replaced an ICE car with a Tesla Model 3, which we replaced with a Jeep 4XE PHEV, which was replaced with an ICE. My wife's next suv will be a pure ICE. I have had the entire experience and ended back at ICE.

• Pure electric is cool as much as a new iPad is. Yes it's fun, yes it's quick but eventually you go back to using your laptop... it's more practical and simply gets the job done better.
• One pedal driving was great, and that has started migrating into ICE cars (I think mostly very mild hybrid, like my truck). There are some really great concepts that came from Tesla, which are now trickling down to everyone else ice or non-ice.
• Range anxiety is a real thing, none of these cars get close to rated range (unless you drive like a snowbird). Stopping every 2 hours sucks, and waiting 30 minutes to charge also sucks. (Yes you can go longer than 2 hours on a charge but you have to maximize and plan superchargers). Yes I can make it work on short trips across the state, but I would never do it with a long road trip. My 911 can make it from Atlanta to St. Pete in 3/4 of a tank. That drive would be 2-3 hours longer in an EV. This preference may depend on driver but I am road trip grinder and will go 10 hours non-stop if I can.
• EV tech still isn't there yet. A week after we traded in the 4XE we got a notice not to park it inside or charge it all and to only run it in ICE only. This notice has seemed to happen at some point to almost all EVs.
• EV cars have no heart... it's literally like sitting inside an iPad and driving. This may be great for some people but not us. I saw a Mustang Mach-E Roush the other day with a speaker exhaust. This might be the most pathetic thing I have ever seen.
• While I don't care to dive into the science of it, I am sure there are peer reviewed studies to back up the theories of power usage/grid/etc. Neither side of the argument here seems to have provided more than opinion and their own math. I would personally venture to say we cannot support a world with all EVs. If California is already having rolling power outages and says not to charge your EVs at home, I'd say we are not even close to ready.
• I will end by saying I am glad EVs are here. Competition is great and they have really pushed manufactures to improve the ICE experience. This is how it should happen and mandates should never be a thing. More choices is better for everyone.

 

[FSH 210 Sport]

@FSH 210 Sport

I'm not doubting your expertise in the field, but I think your estimates are off, and I have some questions.

Why do we have to permit home chargers? They run on what amounts to a dryer circuit. Wouldn't the power grid have been permitted for the complete service level of the house (200A or 100A services, etc.?). We're not talking huge kW's of power here. Most are around 11kW or less for home charging. The impact to the grid take-up should be relatively minor, right?

I think this same issue moved along to your calculations for 1/3 of all electric cars plugging in at the same time. Again, they're not all drawing 250kW DC fast charging level power. They're more than likely each drawing closer to 11kW. Quick google show's 31.4mil cars. Lets call 1/2 of that 15mil just for easy math. If all of those cars plugged in at the same time at home, that's a gain of 550MW, NOT 59,000MW. 3 orders of magnitude less than you're estimating. What numbers are you using to estimate demand?

Reading further in about circuit protection, KVA backloading, and other de-rates required for proper operation......I'm curious if the estimates above skewed that significantly. I know it will still need to exist, but I suspect with 3orders of magnitude less draw than expected, it adds much smaller overhead concerns than previously thought.

The NIMBY issue is real. We're Americans it's kind of what we do, despite it clearly being less than stellar for progress. Not sure how to handle that portion of it.

Regardless of the answers, it's interesting discussion. While I don't think it's going to be a walk in the park, and just magically appear, I also don't hold the thought that it's an unsurmountable task. Resources, Time, Effort will all be involved to make the transition. Beyond that, it's likely to cost us money, not make us money; so the driving force will be legislation, not capitalism. With all that said, it's still the right thing to do!

Gratitude..

As far as the load of half of ca vehicles being electric and charging. There are 35,656,590 registered vehicles in ca as of January 1st 2023 DMV Statistics - California DMV . I used 17 million, take 17M x 3500 watts which is a level II charger at home on a 240VAC ckt drawing 14.5A’s that =‘s 59,500,000,000 watts / 1,000,000 =59,500 MW’s if they were all plugged in at the same time. As a RC, my job is reliability, and based on my experience, using a .6 multiplier leaves a system open to unreliability. My estimate is conservative, but better to have that level of load capability heading into the future than not. The watt hours will be the same regardless of the level of car chargers, Level II will complete the charge of say a Chevy Volt in 4 hours, a level I will take close to 8 hours. But we have to plan on the larger loads of level II chargers. Unless through legislation they will be banned, which is how I see politicians solving the issue, and if that is done, then why not ban super chargers.. for the record I disagree with that solution.

As far as permitting goes, the load potential to a system of Level II car chargers is enormous. The permitting is necessary to be able to keep track of the amount of load. Its very similar to when people put an air conditioning system in their house, that info needs to be available to the engineering dept of the utility to keep not only load but PF correct on a given ckt. In a given house panel, the engineering multiplier is .6 of usage if memory serves which is inclusive of the normal household appliance's. So when a house adds a load of say a heat pump to replace a gas furnace that has to be accounted for in system load and distribution ckt loads. While 14A’s / 3500 watts for a couple of houses is not that significant, it becomes significant in larger numbers. When considering system design and growth, the foundation has to be built accordingly or there are going to be significant problems. For instance, when adding a transmission line, say a 230KV one, this reduces impedance and increases current flow from or to a given point, which will lead to a given systems components exceeding their fault duty capacity, I know this because I dealt with a system that has those issues, and the surrounding system also had those issues, this is because upgrading the system was put off until later, and later is today.

NIMBY‘ism is not limited to Americans..

I agree that this task is not insurmountable, but it is far more work than what most want to acknowledge lest it hamper their ambitions, which is how we ended up here. To be clear, I am all for a complete overhaul of our electric system, but it is going to cost a lot of money and take decades to execute that plan. But, the analysis paralysis has to stop and action needs to be taken to get this ball rolling, now. No one should have to hear public pleas for usage reduction, electricity should be plentiful and inexpensive, once that goal is realized then we can move forward with other plans. No more kicking the can down the road for this reason or that. Southern Company in GA just commissioned the first two new 1200MW generators, the first new nuclear generators in over 50 years As I think I said above, no more power plant retirements based on political agendas without reliable sources in place ahead of time and thoroughly tested. If there is a desire to remove coal fired power plants then get busy building natural gas fired power plants or nuclear power plants, the take those coal units off line.

I disagree about forcing people either directly or indirectly to transition to electric vehicles. If people want to have an electric vehicle then that is their choice, same with an ICE vehicle.

 

[Julian]

Replaying to @Julian 's comment regarding naysayers. We replaced an ICE car with a Tesla Model 3, which we replaced with a Jeep 4XE PHEV, which was replaced with an ICE. My wife's next suv will be a pure ICE. I have had the entire experience and ended back at ICE.

• Pure electric is cool as much as a new iPad is. Yes it's fun, yes it's quick but eventually you go back to using your laptop... it's more practical and simply gets the job done better.
• One pedal driving was great, and that has started migrating into ICE cars (I think mostly very mild hybrid, like my truck). There are some really great concepts that came from Tesla, which are now trickling down to everyone else ice or non-ice.
• Range anxiety is a real thing, none of these cars get close to rated range (unless you drive like a snowbird). Stopping every 2 hours sucks, and waiting 30 minutes to charge also sucks. (Yes you can go longer than 2 hours on a charge but you have to maximize and plan superchargers). Yes I can make it work on short trips across the state, but I would never do it with a long road trip. My 911 can make it from Atlanta to St. Pete in 3/4 of a tank. That drive would be 2-3 hours longer in an EV. This preference may depend on driver but I am road trip grinder and will go 10 hours non-stop if I can.
• EV tech still isn't there yet. A week after we traded in the 4XE we got a notice not to park it inside or charge it all and to only run it in ICE only. This notice has seemed to happen at some point to almost all EVs.
• EV cars have no heart... it's literally like sitting inside an iPad and driving. This may be great for some people but not us. I saw a Mustang Mach-E Roush the other day with a speaker exhaust. This might be the most pathetic thing I have ever seen.
• While I don't care to dive into the science of it, I am sure there are peer reviewed studies to back up the theories of power usage/grid/etc. Neither side of the argument here seems to have provided more than opinion and their own math. I would personally venture to say we cannot support a world with all EVs. If California is already having rolling power outages and says not to charge your EVs at home, I'd say we are not even close to ready.
• I will end by saying I am glad EVs are here. Competition is great and they have really pushed manufactures to improve the ICE experience. This is how it should happen and mandates should never be a thing. More choices is better for everyone.

I always find comments like "it has no heart" amusing. Cars have no heart or soul, but humans don't have souls either! I drive often to Tampa in my EV and have no range anxiety. My car charges in 20 minutes and I'm on my way. Adds 40 minutes to my trip and I always used to stop for lunch and take a break, so one of those stops is my lunch stop. On top of that, I can do the drive for free for 2 years! There is nothing my ICE does that my EV doesn't do - except massaging seats in my Q7 - which are amusing but not really very good at massaging. Now the Q7 is my wife's car and I still have to do it's oil changes! GRRRR.

If I were doing longer road trips into naysayer wastelands (like WV, WI, MN etc) then I take the ICE. Having both works well. Once the infrastucture improves, perhaps we'll shift to two EVs, but that will be a while. EV for local driving is PERFECT!

 

[2kwik4u]

I always find comments like "it has no heart" amusing.

I doth protest sir. The driveline is but only a small portion of what gives a vehicle it's personality. To say it has no heart is incorrect, but to say it has the same heart as another is equally as wrong.

 

[Jim_in_Delaware]

It hasn’t been 50 years since we commissioned the last nuclear reactor. As I noted earlier in this thread, Watts Bar Unit 2, in Tennessee, which began commercial electricity generation in October 2016. I will agree that there is not much building of new nuclear reactors in this country and that many of the reactors were commissioned decades ago. We stopped building conventional nuclear reactors in this country primarily because of the capital cost of building nuclear power plants, as they are/were just too much for power companies to afford.

Jim

 

[2kwik4u]

@FSH 210 Sport

I was using 15mil @ 11kW ea......I think I have a kW to MW conversion wrong somewhere. I can't find an error in your math or mine, but they don't agree. I'm out of bandwidth to solve that today. I'll have to make a spreadsheet another time

I'm still curious on the planning/permitting though. I get why you need to know, however I'm unsure why you don't plan on the total capacity of the circuit of the house and instead are getting more granular into the things inside that circuit. If you have 100 houses, that all have 200A circuits, do you not plan for everyone to use everything all at once? If not, I assume that is where you're 0.6 multiplier comes from (and why you chose to be 10% more conservative), does the EV charger not also fall within the same parameters. What's the difference between a vehicle being plugged in and drawing current as opposed to an electric dryer, or stove being turned on simultaneously? They run on similar sized/rated circuits, would be not have the same issue if everyone decided to do laundry and make a roast at the same time? If not, what's different? If so, then why isn't the circuit rated for it?

 

[adrianp89]

I always find comments like "it has no heart" amusing. Cars have no heart or soul, but humans don't have souls either! I drive often to Tampa in my EV and have no range anxiety. My car charges in 20 minutes and I'm on my way. Adds 40 minutes to my trip and I always used to stop for lunch and take a break, so one of those stops is my lunch stop. On top of that, I can do the drive for free for 2 years! There is nothing my ICE does that my EV doesn't do - except massaging seats in my Q7 - which are amusing but not really very good at massaging. Now the Q7 is my wife's car and I still have to do it's oil changes! GRRRR.

If I were doing longer road trips into naysayer wastelands (like WV, WI, MN etc) then I take the ICE. Having both works well. Once the infrastucture improves, perhaps we'll shift to two EVs, but that will be a while. EV for local driving is PERFECT!

A Q7 is a rather boring car so I get where you are coming from. Compare a 911 to a Tesla Performance car and the heart/soul comment has much more significance.

 

[adrianp89]

A Q7 is a rather boring car so I get where you are coming from. Compare a 911 to a Tesla Performance car and the heart/soul comment has much more significance.

I will also say I enjoy doing oil changes, and generally working on my cars/toys. I hope to share this experience with my daughter as well. Refilling windshield wiper fluid on an EV does not count.

 

[2kwik4u]

A Q7 is a rather boring car so I get where you are coming from. Compare a 911 to a Tesla Performance car and the heart/soul comment has much more significance.

Ouch. Hit me right in the feels.

 

[BlkGS]

Ouch. Hit me right in the feels.

You're just mad your Q7 is slower than the X5... And TBSS!

Lol, just kidding. Kind of.

I think theres three types of people that like EVs. Group 1 are the "techies". These are the people who think they're so cool because they don't have physical buttons in their new car, and want to feel like they're on the cutting edge of what's possible. They're most likely to make apologies for their shortcomings and proudly proclaim.them as the future. Group 2 has a hella long commute and just wants it to be cheaper. They buy cheaper EVs and charge at home and might find it fine, but they're really only into it for the money. If electric rates go up and taxes on the EVs go up to offset gas tax losses, they'll convert to whatever is cheapest. Group 3 are the "simplicity" crowd. They're sold 100% on not having to do upkeep and one pedal driving and all that. They're typically older, and will tell you an oil change is $500 because they're paying a dealer to do it. You get your Bi-curious types that will dablle in a bit of EVs but still also enjoy a big throbbing ICE. They'll play around with an EV, talk about it a lot, then settle down with an ICE or a hybrid, but talk about their EV experiences.

I still think we are at peak EV performance or very close. I suspect we are only a few years away from an energy usage cap, where the performance of EVa will be dramatically cut

 

[Coult45]

You're just mad your Q7 is slower than the X5... And TBSS!

Lol, just kidding. Kind of.

I think theres three types of people that like EVs. Group 1 are the "techies". These are the people who think they're so cool because they don't have physical buttons in their new car, and want to feel like they're on the cutting edge of what's possible. They're most likely to make apologies for their shortcomings and proudly proclaim.them as the future. Group 2 has a hella long commute and just wants it to be cheaper. They buy cheaper EVs and charge at home and might find it fine, but they're really only into it for the money. If electric rates go up and taxes on the EVs go up to offset gas tax losses, they'll convert to whatever is cheapest. Group 3 are the "simplicity" crowd. They're sold 100% on not having to do upkeep and one pedal driving and all that. They're typically older, and will tell you an oil change is $500 because they're paying a dealer to do it. You get your Bi-curious types that will dablle in a bit of EVs but still also enjoy a big throbbing ICE. They'll play around with an EV, talk about it a lot, then settle down with an ICE or a hybrid, but talk about their EV experiences.

I still think we are at peak EV performance or very close. I suspect we are only a few years away from an energy usage cap, where the performance of EVa will be dramatically cut

Interesting take on EV owners. Have you owned one? We've had a Mach E for a couple of years. I have two neighbors with EVs. Two brothers-in-law have EVs. None fit into any of those groups. Not even close. I could write a paragraph about guys who need excessive hp to weight ratios and loud exhausts, and I think it would be equally inaccurate.

I think there are a lot of folks out there who are making intelligent personal use case decisions that work for them.

And, serious question, what's driving the "energy usage cap" theory?

 

[Coult45]

And, full disclosure, my other vehicle is a big throbbing ICE. Duramax diesel.

 

[FSH 210 Sport]

@FSH 210 Sport

I was using 15mil @ 11kW ea......I think I have a kW to MW conversion wrong somewhere. I can't find an error in your math or mine, but they don't agree. I'm out of bandwidth to solve that today. I'll have to make a spreadsheet another time

I'm still curious on the planning/permitting though. I get why you need to know, however I'm unsure why you don't plan on the total capacity of the circuit of the house and instead are getting more granular into the things inside that circuit. If you have 100 houses, that all have 200A circuits, do you not plan for everyone to use everything all at once? If not, I assume that is where you're 0.6 multiplier comes from (and why you chose to be 10% more conservative), does the EV charger not also fall within the same parameters. What's the difference between a vehicle being plugged in and drawing current as opposed to an electric dryer, or stove being turned on simultaneously? They run on similar sized/rated circuits, would be not have the same issue if everyone decided to do laundry and make a roast at the same time? If not, what's different? If so, then why isn't the circuit rated for it?

I didn’t get why the engineering is .6 and not 1, it’s the way it was where I worked and a lot of other utilities use the same constant. Then you have SCE who use the .6 but run their transformers to 200% at peak times, crazy right? Another way to put it, it was their world and I just worked in it and had to deal with the mess. Loading on most distribution xfmrs is also calculated at .6. Most of the time if the total kva is added up on a distribution ckt it far exceeds the over current settings on the ckts breaker at the substation. And the overcurrent relay is such that it is about 150% of the cable rating from the breaker out of the station and up several four way switches into the ckts home run.

Keeping the above in mind, one would assume economics and perhaps most of the time loading? I agree that planners should just use 1 and assume full load capacity and that would make it simple. Most 200A panels are not full of breakers.

 

[BlkGS]

Interesting take on EV owners. Have you owned one? We've had a Mach E for a couple of years. I have two neighbors with EVs. Two brothers-in-law have EVs. None fit into any of those groups. Not even close. I could write a paragraph about guys who need excessive hp to weight ratios and loud exhausts, and I think it would be equally inaccurate.

I think there are a lot of folks out there who are making intelligent personal use case decisions that work for them.

And, serious question, what's driving the "energy usage cap" theory?

You missed how clearly tongue in cheek that all was, huh? Obviously a lot of people have a lot of different reasons to have EVs. That was just me taking it to a humorous extreme. I really thought the Bi-curious part gave it away lol.


Energy usage cap.wise, I just think it's highly likely thata how governments will rein in the performance. I think we can all agree we don't want a world where every tool with a 100k loan gets to pilot a 6000lb brick that hits 60 in 3 seconds or less. I think the government will decide that vehicles can only use so much energy at max as a way to cap it, and they'll use environmental reasoning. Vehicles that use too much energy use a disproportionate amount of juice to charge and that hurts the environment and other people kinda stuff. They'll likely tie it into taxes somehow too, cuz that's just how government works.

 

[zpaul]

All this discussion reminds me what Rich said when he bought TRX.
He owns TRX and Rivian likes both trucks for what they are and realizes their shortcomings as well.
So he posted his thoughts on Rivian forum and TRX forum. ICE people totally trashed him.

Personally, the only thing I don’t like about EVs is how government is forcing those on us using tax money to ‘incentivize’. And don’t tell me story bureaucrats know what they are doing. They do stuff based on political or lobbies behalf that doesn’t really make sense.

In my view having EV and ice is a perfect mix. EV for daily drive, ICE for long trips and towing. I just can afford both.

Julian says he enjoys long trips on EV and it is free for 2 years with ionic.
I personally want to get to places faster and as soon as free runs out you’ll be shocked to know that it is cheaper fill up Highlander then charge EV in 30-40 degree weather. Takes twice as long and cost at the end is higher for same mileage.

again, if you recognize all these shortcomings of build quality of certain EVs, charging, expensive battery replacement you should be fine.
Like buying German car , if you understand the cost of replacement parts and cost of changing DSG transmission oil and you fine paying it there is no issue.

 

[CaptRedbeard]

Seems like we either have a lot of libertarians in this forum or people liking to cherry pick certain industries that they don't want the government incentivizing and subsidizing while ignoring the subsidization of other industries.

 

[Jim_in_Delaware]

All this discussion reminds me what Rich said when he bought TRX.
He owns TRX and Rivian likes both trucks for what they are and realizes their shortcomings as well.
So he posted his thoughts on Rivian forum and TRX forum. ICE people totally trashed him.

Personally, the only thing I don’t like about EVs is how government is forcing those on us using tax money to ‘incentivize’. And don’t tell me story bureaucrats know what they are doing. They do stuff based on political or lobbies behalf that doesn’t really make sense.

In my view having EV and ice is a perfect mix. EV for daily drive, ICE for long trips and towing. I just can afford both.

Julian says he enjoys long trips on EV and it is free for 2 years with ionic.
I personally want to get to places faster and as soon as free runs out you’ll be shocked to know that it is cheaper fill up Highlander then charge EV in 30-40 degree weather. Takes twice as long and cost at the end is higher for same mileage.

again, if you recognize all these shortcomings of build quality of certain EVs, charging, expensive battery replacement you should be fine.
Like buying German car , if you understand the cost of replacement parts and cost of changing DSG transmission oil and you fine paying it there is no issue.

Interesting video.

I have the ICE for long trips and towing (2020 Ram 1500) and was considering an EV for a daily driver next year. I’m really liking the concept of the Ramcharger (gas/electric) as maybe one could have it all (daily driver AND long trip towing) in a single vehicle. If the Ramcharger lives up to the hype and prices are reasonable, I may hold off on the EV purchase and buy a Ramcharger in 2026.

I’m not sure battery replacement is that big of an issue. I remember when the Prius first came out and thinking what a stupid idea - you would have to replace the batteries every couple of years of driving! Turns out, the battery technology was much better than I thought it would be.

Jim

 

[zpaul]

Interesting video.

I have the ICE for long trips and towing (2020 Ram 1500) and was considering an EV for a daily driver next year. I’m really liking the concept of the Ramcharger (gas/electric) as maybe one could have it all (daily driver AND long trip towing) in a single vehicle. If the Ramcharger lives up to the hype and prices are reasonable, I may hold off on the EV purchase and buy a Ramcharger in 2026.

I’m not sure battery replacement is that big of an issue. I remember when the Prius first came out and thinking what a stupid idea - you would have to replace the batteries every couple of years of driving! Turns out, the battery technology was much better than I thought it would be.

Jim

Remember when Prius was introduced. People hated it. Some still do haha
BUT overall people warmed up to concept of Hybrid vehicles.
Battery replacement is a huge issue.
Watch this video

it may be not the longevity of the battery pack but rather then external factors like accidents or derby on the road.
Insurance for obvious reasons (liability) will decide immediately to replace the whole pack, and when they realize Hyundai charges for it more then the cost of new car?!?!? they will write off perfectly fine vehicle.
Guess where this green energy is going? to the same grave yard

So while the claim is EV benefit the environment - it is unknown how much they will eventually pollute it if insurance companies refuse to to repair/replace/recycle batter back packs. Just can't wait to hear - " that is why we need more regulation"
Yeah - first lets create the problem and then solve the problem with more problems.

Point is do not undercut EV issues like they are solution to all of our problems!
When you get free charging for 2 years - it is NOT FREE. Someone aka tax payers are footing the bill.
How would you feel if certain administration decides to encourage RAM TRX and FORD RAPTOR sales by providing $15k tax incentives and free gas for 2 years and gas stations?!?!?!