Controlling a skid / slide while Trolling with the 210 FSH

[FSH 210 Sport]

I had meant to say Lee boards, which are similar but different than a daggerboard. Lee board design and why.

https://www.duckworksmagazine.com/01/articles/leeboards/index.htm

I bet another on the other side and more forward would take the crab walk out of the troll.

Was revisiting this thread and re read your post… I bet you are are correct about an additional board forward would really help to stabilize the crab in a rear quartering wind.

A bit of and update, I’ve been using this dagger board all summer, and after getting some better clamps the dagger board stays straight now. I can tell you that it becomes apparent very quickly if I start trolling and have forgotten to put the dagger board out. I use the dagger board with the trolling motor and or trolling with the mains. It will still skid a bit in stronger rear quartering winds. I bought a 30” drogue as an in between for my 18” and 50” (the 50” is a lot of drag!) drogues and that has helped to dial in the braking I need in a down wind scenario, which also helps with the amount of skid there is, as it keeps the trolling motor pulling strong enough to maintain good directional control. The other thing I have done is to switch over to Legacy auto pilot from Advanced auto pilot on the Rip Tide Ulterra trolling motor. The difference between the two is that Advanced lays down a gps track and Legacy is a compass bearing. In very windy conditions, the Advanced auto pilot will do everything it can to get back onto that gps track which means it will make very sharp turns-not conducive to keeping trolling lines from crossing and becoming a total cluster! The Legacy auto pilot is much more subtle albeit not as precise, but much much better for those very windy conditions.

 

[Julian]

Adding Cobra fins made a significant improvement for me in slow speed tracking and to a lesser degree wind movement. I went without them for 5 years, then added them - so I have had PLENTY of experience both with and without. The amount of steering correction I have to do now to track straight is hugely less - I had to train myself to stop pre-correcting....took some time!

Definitely won't give you as much as this rudder will....but for those looking for something in between...fins do help

(ignore anyone that says fins are for beginners - I've got 20 years on these boats - they clearly haven't used the latest size or any size perhaps!)

 

[FSH 210 Sport]

Adding Cobra fins made a significant improvement for me in slow speed tracking and to a lesser degree wind movement. I went without them for 5 years, then added them - so I have had PLENTY of experience both with and without. The amount of steering correction I have to do now to track straight is hugely less - I had to train myself to stop pre-correcting....took some time!

Definitely won't give you as much as this rudder will....but for those looking for something in between...fins do help

(ignore anyone that says fins are for beginners - I've got 20 years on these boats - they clearly haven't used the latest size or any size perhaps!)

I keep coming back to the TV‘s.. but so far have not installed them. I may have to give them a try at some point. Your experience is much appreciated !!!

 

[Julian]

I keep coming back to the TV‘s.. but so far have not installed them. I may have to give them a try at some point. Your experience is much appreciated !!!

The surface area of your rudder attachment is massively bigger than Cobra Fins or Thrust Vectors, so it wouldn't perform as well in your application, but it would improve trolling for sure!

 

[FSH 210 Sport]

The surface area of your rudder attachment is massively bigger than Cobra Fins or Thrust Vectors, so it wouldn't perform as well in your application, but it would improve trolling for sure!

I’m sure that either of those would enhance low speed maneuverability! The rudder / skag is pretty awesome for what I’ve been using it for. With the sea sucker mounts it is quick to install and stow.

 

[FSH 210 Sport]

So after a couple seasons of use with the prototype has proven VERY effective, but we will be making some improvements to this design. I hadn’t posted comprehensive pictures before, so I thought I’d throw some in this thread.

Under heavy side loading (wind) and waves there’s just too much load for the single sea sucker pad on the bottom to stay attached. So, we will probably go with a two pad lower and single pad upper design, and make another for the other side to improve skidding in high wind. When I was at Lake Oahe last trip I was trying to keep fishing in 2-3’ rollers, one seas sucker came apart, so I put in my spare and it would stay in for a while then pop off, the six inch pads I use are rated for 240# each, so there’s an idea of how much force that dagger board is putting on that pad.





With just one pin to connect the dagger board to the mount, the system is easy to deploy and then break it down again for svelte storage. We are probably going to make dedicated storage for the dagger board(s) above the horizontal rod holders.






The Yamaha badging may have to go or get moved to make room for two six inch pads side by side.





We have toyed with the idea of making aluminum dagger boards that would attach under the swim platform and would deploy and retract with trim tab motors, but I don’t think we can get enough surface area that way to make it worthwhile.



In that position I can make runs to wherever I want to go at cruising or faster speeds, it’s very convenient, you just rotate the dagger board up and take off, once you arrive at the new location just rotate it down and you’re back in business.

 

[FSH 210 Sport]

This solution looks really inventive. I was in one of those "other threads". At the time the common wisdom was the drogue chute. I just didn't like the idea of wasting all that energy by creating so much drag for the trolling motor. I also didn't like the idea of having something dragging in the water to snag on or get tangled up in when fighting fish.

I purchased some Thrust Vectors last fall with the hopes that they will do esentially what this board is doing without having another device to manage. I haven't made it out on the water to test yet, but I'm hopeful it will be effective.

How did the TV’s work out?

 

[FSH 210 Sport]

That makes sense. If you have a strong enough following wind no amount of rudder is going to fully solve the problem.

All boats skid…. It’s just ours have so little keel that a whisper of a breeze pushes ours sideways.

 

[NeoBrew]

How did the TV’s work out?

The thrust vectors are a significant improvement over stock equipment. I have not had any crazy spin moments since I installed them.

I would recommend them as a solution to the trolling problem. They also help stabilize slow speed driving under engine power, but I didn’t mind steering without them before. That said, if you are trolling with your boat I feel they are worth it.

 

[FSH 210 Sport]

The thrust vectors are a significant improvement over stock equipment. I have not had any crazy spin moments since I installed them.

I would recommend them as a solution to the trolling problem. They also help stabilize slow speed driving under engine power, but I didn’t mind steering without them before. That said, if you are trolling with your boat I feel they are worth it.

I can see where the TV’s would help with steering but so does using the TDE position and the no wake mode. However, the TV’s would have little affect in a skidding situation, they are designed to maximize thrust going back, and provide some lateral steering enhancement. I do appreciate your suggestion though.

 

[FSH 210 Sport]

The time finally came to take the proof of concept dagger board and its sea sucker mounting system to the next level. One of the problems with the sea sucker mounting set up was that it would twist under heavy load, which would cause the dagger board to twist in a direction that would push the stern in the direction that wind was blowing. While have the dagger board was a huge help, that twisting moment was a bit counter productive.

My friend Jim found the V block on boat outfitters and we agreed that this would be worth investing the time and effort to purchase one and test fit it. We had been discussing where to put “hard” mounts that would work best we decided on the small step on the swim platform, while not as low as the original mount, the increase in moment arm and its rigidity should offset the shallower penetration of the dagger board into the water, AND, we were going to add another board.

First step was doing visual locating…

Eyeball engineering


Next was drilling the first hole…and lo… there is wood in the swim deck construction.



We tapped the hole with a 3/8”-16 tap for the 3/8-16 to 1/4-20 thread adapters





Beginning of the mock up process













Next was securing the thread adapters with JB Weld Marine epoxy.





Final bedding the mounts with 5200









Finished product








I’m going to make up a pvc doo dad that will drop into the last cap rail rod holder that will provide a place to flip the dagger board up into and lash it down with a small bungee cord for cruising to other fishing grounds.

Testing tomorrow …

 

[NeoBrew]

I can see where the TV’s would help with steering but so does using the TDE position and the no wake mode. However, the TV’s would have little affect in a skidding situation, they are designed to maximize thrust going back, and provide some lateral steering enhancement. I do appreciate your suggestion though.

Your project looks pretty robust. I was thinking of doing something like that for my rubber raft that has terrible spins when trolling. I am currently using a drift sock. Let us know how your experiment goes.

I think you are confusing the lateral thrusters with the thrust vectors. Thrust vectors are big fins that hang down from the jets at slow speeds. They provide much the same function as your dagger board, but they bolt right on the jets and don’t require any management once they are there. The cobra jet fins do the same thing, but I don’t believe they retract at high speed.

 

[FSH 210 Sport]

Your project looks pretty robust. I was thinking of doing something like that for my rubber raft that has terrible spins when trolling. I am currently using a drift sock. Let us know how your experiment goes.

I think you are confusing the lateral thrusters with the thrust vectors. Thrust vectors are big fins that hang down from the jets at slow speeds. They provide much the same function as your dagger board, but they bolt right on the jets and don’t require any management once they are there. The cobra jet fins do the same thing, but I don’t believe they retract at high speed.

No, I know what you are talking about.. your point is well taken, I’m sure they help some.

 

[FSH 210 Sport]

Test day today.

As a fyi, I was trolling today at 2 mph using the trolling motor mainly for guidance and had the engines on to provide additional thrust, this helps to extend the battery life over a long day on the lake.

The difference between a single suction cup mounted dagger and the twin hard mounted dagger boards was stark. There was not much wind to speak of this morning


the boat acted as if it was on rails, the trolling motor was barely moving to stay on the pre recorded track I have or the auto pilot which follows a gps track. Later in the day it was breezy and at times started to get windy maybe 20 mph gusts, for a test, with the wind blowing abeam, I lifted both dagger boards and the boat instantly went into about a 20* skid. I dropped the port dagger board first and most of the skid went away and when I dropped the second board the skid was all but imperceptible.

The new slide in mounts were super easy to use as opposed to the suction cups, and the boards had very little flex when side thrust was applied to them by the wind. When I wanted to make a run for a sheltered cover so I could bbq some hot dogs I just flipped the dagger boards up and cruised on back to the sheltered cove I had in mind.

Next time out I’ll try and remember to get some action pictures on the water.

 

[FSH 210 Sport]

Okay got a couple pictures of the dagger board 2.0 in action.





This was over at Lake Oahe and the dual dagger boards proved themselves very well in windier and rougher conditions. However, when we put the 2.0 together we only had a small amount of the smaller diameter tubing that goes into the clutch on the dagger board, thus why we put three threaded 1/4 -20 screws into the tubes to tie them together. In heavier conditions the two pieces of tubing that a .037” gap between them allowed flexing this in turn had the 1/4 20 screws backing out. You can see in the pic below how limited the overlap was. The back crap is aluminum schmutz from rubbing together.



So we sourced some thicker walled out tubing and some much heavier walled inner tubing. The result was a gap of .009”. This time we had full overlap, we roughed up the finish of the tubing and slathered on plenty of JB Weld Steve epoxy, and put one 1/4-20 screw through the tubes as a bit of a set screw. I could have sworn I had a better picture than the one below but I don’t. I’ll try and get some more pics and post them next time out. We will call this dagger board 2.5. Unless we want them to do something different, or unless the clutch becomes the weak link I think iteration 2.5 will be the final version. Looking forward to testing out the 2.5 version!

 

[FSH 210 Sport]

Okay something weird is going on with the site.. trying to make an edit and I cannot.

This piece here, the 2.0 version had only the outer tube being held in place by this part of the mount.





The outer tubing alone was just not enough to support this fitting’s applied force without egg shaping. Again, had we had enough of the inner tube it may not have happened. But now with the thicker outer tube and the way thicker inner tube nothing will be deforming.

We probably would have ended up wither version 2.5 a while ago if it was not for me using the boat a lot and being pretty happy with version 1.0. Another observation is that now when I’m using my trolling motor you can clearly see that the stern of the boat is “anchored” very well and gusts of wind now push the bow around, and the trolling motor is working better than ever.

Note, if you have the Minnkota trolling motor set up similar to how mine is, be very careful about what you put under the puck that goes on the cap rail. The installer at the dealer put the puck in a place I would not have, directly above the start and house batteries. What became a problem, at least I think this is the issue, is when I put my jump pack on top of the house and start batteries, I was getting some weird behavior out of R2 ( I know call the troller R2 is schmaltzy but it works) erratic heading corrections and such. I got to thinking of this the other day while I was out fishing and thought hmmmmm.. so I pulled the jump pack and my portable VHF radio out of that area and that seemed to fix it. Waving the vhf radio in front of the compass on the dash didn’t do much, but the jump pack did make the compass swing about 20*so that certainly was not helping.

 

[NeoBrew]

I can see that you are very excited about this project. Good on you for coming up with a creative solution to the problem. I cannot imagine what benefits this provides over installing the Cobra Jet or Thrust Vector products. They are a task to install and have a cost, but I have to imagine you must have spent about that much on your parts plus you have to manually manage the dagger boards.

 

[FSH 210 Sport]

Thank you!

Cost; I think all in all if one were to get the parts for the 2.5 version and put it together for two dagger boards and the mounting hardware it would be right about $1000 The dagger boards had a fairly significant jump in price of about 30% which is seven percent less than 37% loss in purchasing power over the last couple of years due to inflation. That alone brings the cost up $100 per side.

These dagger boards serve a different purpose than thrusts vectors, the dagger boards just are to keep the boat going straight when pushed from the side by wind. A knock on benefit is that when cruising slow the boat is very stable in the Y axis or Yaw. So putting the boat on the trailer in the wind is easier.

The thrust vectors on the other hand are designed to increase directional control.

As far as managing them there is a built in friction clutch that is adjustable on the mounting point, it takes 10 seconds max to swing them up out of the way for fast running.

 

[FSH 210 Sport]

Here’s a couple of vids in calm water. I’ll get a couple of rough water vids next time that situation presents itself.

 

[FSH 210 Sport]

While I did not get any pics or vids of rough water use I did get to test the dagger boards 2.5 over at Lake Oahe in some pretty rough water and high winds. I’m happy to say the 2.5 version worked flawlessly, no movement in the mounts and very little flex in the pivot clutch. With the hard mount we could tighten the clutch up a bit more so the boards hold themselves in the up position firmly so a quick flip up and you can take off to the next spot you want to fish.

Again the big benefit to the hard mount over the suction cup mount is A-no flex and even easier mounting and B-The boards do not pivot in the Y axis when the suction cup mount would flex which was counterproductive to what they were supposed to be doing, but even then it was a huge improvement. In high perpendicular winds there is still a bit of yaw but the amount of yaw is exponentially smaller than without them. A side benefit of the boards is that when spot locked and it’s windy the boat doesn’t swing around when the trolling motor pulls the front end back after a gust of wind.

The next step is to figure out a mount for the dagger boards above the horizontal rod holders to keep them out of the forward port storage pod.