New PerfectPass product??

[MidnightRider]

Am I the only one who thinks the buttons sound appealing?! I had RS and liked the knob, but I also like buttons, especially for speed adjustments. The knob is probably better for navigating. Touch screen would be the ultimate.

That's interesting. I was just reading a write up by Mazda designers that have done a fair amount of research on car safety around the trend of smart screens in cars. They were so convinced that they completely changed directions on dash design in their cars away from any smart or touch screens towards well placed knobs and switches. The reasoning was pretty simple in that they found drivers spent a large amount of time focusing on the dash with smart/touch screens because they could not access the controls with out visual confirmation. Where as a knob you don't have to look at all at it and can work it completely by feel. (I'm paraphrasing this drastically but you get the idea). So in this application (boat speed control) it is obviously not as crucial but the concept still applies. It is far easier to reach down and adjust speed without refocusing your attention away from driving the boat with a knob that you can reach down and feel rather than a flat surface buttons and/or touch screens. It is personal preference to some degree but i've always much preferred knobs and switches for drive time controls in cars and that translates to me with the boat. I feel you also have much more fine tuned control with a 32 indent knob (or whatever it is) than multiple pushes of a button and/or holding the button and letting go at the right time. My .02 cents. Wish I could find that article about Mazada, it was really interesting in the current trend of cars to smart screen dashes and convincing as well.

 

[Mainah]

As my kids would say ... yep all that just happened. Moving past the drama. I doubt anyone commenting here who has R-S is going to spend the coin to switch even if it were just a bit better. I know I won't. I do geek out on this kind of stuff. These are both going to be marketed here. If I were in marketing I would personally say my product is either better or cheaper regardless of the facts because I am not going to sell an saying my product in basically the same or inferior. Not taking sides there just putting what we are sure to hear down the road into perspective. The buyers will have to make the decision about what they believe and what is best for them. Since I geek out on this stuff I put together I quick chart on what I think is material and factual from a product standpoint. Lots of question marks that still need filled in and I did take a couple of educated guesses given what I think I know so this is very preliminary.

Feature/Comparison	Ridesteady	Perfect Pass	Why it matters
User Interface	Rotary Knob and buttons	Buttons only	Easier to use
Plug and play installation	Yes	Yes	easy to install
RPM Mode	Active monitoring and syncing	Passive voltage correlation	Smoother and more precise particular when pumps are differentially loaded
RPM Syncing	Active Fulltime	Passive voltage correlation	Smoother and more precise particular when pumps are differentially loaded
RPM Syncing during user binnicle crusing control	Yes	No	More enjoyable crusing
Fully Water Proof	No	No	longevtivity/reliability
Conformal Coated for water resistance	Yes	?	longevtivity/reliability
GPS Set point resolution	0.1 MPH	?	more precise ride
Active GPS corection resolution	0.1 MPH	?	Smoother and more precise ride
Active GPS correction operations per second	?	?	Smoother and more precise ride
GPS Type	GPS + GLONASS	?	Smoother and more precise ride
Minumum/Maximum number of satelittes	?	?	Smoother and more precise ride
Normal operation if fails	Yes, After disconnect Throttle Nodes	Yes, Automatic ?	If it fails still need to get back to shore
Ramp Curve selection from dead stop	No	No	Same dead start pull every time
Rider Remote control of set speed	No	No	Not common but really cool
EMI Sheilded	Yes	?	prevent poor operating of system and noise leaking into audio system
Minimum Active GPS Speed	?	?	point at which the system takes over from the driver
Maximum Active GPS Speed	?	?	can you use it to cruise desired speed in gps mode
Warranty	One Year	?	Most products have defect rates
Price	$1,395 + $49.95 for external display	$1,195	Well yeah price matters

To answer @MattFX4 about touch screen ... only if the touch buttons are big enough. On the top end tow boats I was on last week they were no where close to big enough. Flat buttons also take longer to acquire and maintain purchase on in a moving 3d space. I love electronics but have found I far prefer the physical buttons and knobs like the connext rotary controller on my boat and many others.

 

[Scottie]

Am I the only one who thinks the buttons sound appealing?! I had RS and liked the knob, but I also like buttons, especially for speed adjustments. The knob is probably better for navigating. Touch screen would be the ultimate.

Could be. Knob is tremendously quicker for anything other than a .1 speed change.

Also, if I had to navigate profiles and system settings one button at a time on my RS, I would throw it overboard. Ha.

 

[Ridesteady]

I can fill in some of the blanks there.

Active GPS correction operations per second - the Ridesteady system's receiver receives both GPS (US) and GLONASS (Russian) systems concurrently at 5 Hz.

Minimum number satellites - the receiver needs a minimum of 3 or 4, but it uses a different metric to determine a fix. On average, Ridesteady (in the Austin, Texas area) has a lock on around 20 satellites simultaneously (sometimes less, sometimes more). I believe I've seen as high as 24, but it's pretty much irrelevant after that because they're so far on the horizon they're not providing much value to the navigation engine.

Maximum number satellites - more than you'll ever need.

Minimum Active GPS speed (assuming you're referring to set speed?) - 8 MPH
Maximum Active GPS speed (again, assuming set speed) - 50 MPH

 

[swatski]

As my kids would say ... yep all that just happened. Moving past the drama. I doubt anyone commenting here who has R-S is going to spend the coin to switch even if it were just a bit better. I know I won't. I do geek out on this kind of stuff. These are both going to be marketed here. If I were in marketing I would personally say my product is either better or cheaper regardless of the facts because I am not going to sell an saying my product in basically the same or inferior. Not taking sides there just putting what we are sure to hear down the road into perspective. The buyers will have to make the decision about what they believe and what is best for them. Since I geek out on this stuff I put together I quick chart on what I think is material and factual from a product standpoint. Lots of question marks that still need filled in and I did take a couple of educated guesses given what I think I know so this is very preliminary.

Feature/Comparison	Ridesteady	Perfect Pass	Why it matters
User Interface	Rotary Knob and buttons	Buttons only	Easier to use
Plug and play installation	Yes	Yes	easy to install
RPM Mode	Active monitoring and syncing	Passive voltage correlation	Smoother and more precise particular when pumps are differentially loaded
RPM Syncing	Active Fulltime	Passive voltage correlation	Smoother and more precise particular when pumps are differentially loaded
RPM Syncing during user binnicle crusing control	Yes	No	More enjoyable crusing
Fully Water Proof	No	No	longevtivity/reliability
Conformal Coated for water resistance	Yes	?	longevtivity/reliability
GPS Set point resolution	0.1 MPH	?	more precise ride
Active GPS corection resolution	0.1 MPH	?	Smoother and more precise ride
Active GPS correction operations per second	?	?	Smoother and more precise ride
GPS Type	GPS + GLONASS	?	Smoother and more precise ride
Minumum/Maximum number of satelittes	?	?	Smoother and more precise ride
Normal operation if fails	Yes, After disconnect Throttle Nodes	Yes, Automatic ?	If it fails still need to get back to shore
Ramp Curve selection from dead stop	No	No	Same dead start pull every time
Rider Remote control of set speed	No	No	Not common but really cool
EMI Sheilded	Yes	?	prevent poor operating of system and noise leaking into audio system
Minimum Active GPS Speed	?	?	point at which the system takes over from the driver
Maximum Active GPS Speed	?	?	can you use it to cruise desired speed in gps mode
Warranty	One Year	?	Most products have defect rates
Price	$1,395 + $49.95 for external display	$1,195	Well yeah price matters

To answer @MattFX4 about touch screen ... only if the touch buttons are big enough. On the top end tow boats I was on last week they were no where close to big enough. Flat buttons also take longer to acquire and maintain purchase on in a moving 3d space. I love electronics but have found I far prefer the physical buttons and knobs like the connext rotary controller on my boat and many others.

Do we know the new JBP PP system will work in Connext boats?

Sorry, I lost track of his claims, I can't tell what's real and what's a frivolous claim.

—

 

[MidnightRider]

Do we know the new JBP PP system will work in Connext boats?

Sorry, I lost track of his claims, I can't tell what's real and what's a frivolous claim.

—

Works with and only with boats with APS

 

[the MfM]

Do we know the new JBP PP system will work in Connext boats?

Sorry, I lost track of his claims, I can't tell what's real and what's a frivolous claim.

—

I’m sure the product will go through a rigorous and thorough beta test program. At which point all info will be available. So when it ships out there will be no surprises.

 

[Mainah]

I can fill in some of the blanks there.

Active GPS correction operations per second - the Ridesteady system's receiver receives both GPS (US) and GLONASS (Russian) systems concurrently at 5 Hz.

Minimum number satellites - the receiver needs a minimum of 3 or 4, but it uses a different metric to determine a fix. On average, Ridesteady (in the Austin, Texas area) has a lock on around 20 satellites simultaneously (sometimes less, sometimes more). I believe I've seen as high as 24, but it's pretty much irrelevant after that because they're so far on the horizon they're not providing much value to the navigation engine.

Maximum number satellites - more than you'll ever need.

Minimum Active GPS speed (assuming you're referring to set speed?) - 8 MPH
Maximum Active GPS speed (again, assuming set speed) - 50 MPH

Yes of course, good point as set and actual can vary. That question is geared towards what the system is capable of (set) and not what the boat/conditions are capable of (actual).

I get the GPS Rx but surely not comparing set to actual and then acting (or not acting on it if matched) 5 thousand times per second? If so holy cow and there becomes a number so high that is no longer perceivable like dropping a core i7 and 128 gigs of ddr ram in a basic desk calculator. Of course you know this.... it does not matter if a computer reads something 5 thousands time per second if only acts on once every 5000 seconds. Concurrent 5k rx is of course more than enough for this application. But lets say full end to end correction logic is cycling/looping at 100 hz (100 times per second) the algorithm/logic/program/code/engine that is being applied at that frequency still matters but then we are getting into the secret recipe so to speak and not something either you nor PP would want to disclose. This is why I kept it to correction actions per second. Of course the boat ECU may be the limiting factor in as far as how often it is able to act upon inputs and how quickly it does so. For those reading on the longer between correction actions (or non-action if set = actual) the less smooth the pull becomes and the more variance it will have. That of course has to be combined with resolution/precision inherent in the capabilities of the system and the code. Just tyring to give some fact based product comparison points for folks to base a decision on. Some of these numbers may be so high or low it does not even make a perceivable difference.

On satellites more = better as more = more precision. I don't know the actual precision numbers but as a high-level explination 3 satellites may give a precision of 100 yards and iterating a single digit in the response time string from one satellite may make the controller think you have moved 20 yards in 1000th of a second. That compared to 10 saletittes having a precision of 5 yards and string iterations only resulting in the controller thinking you moved 1 yard in 1000th of a second as opposed to the 20 in 1000th of a second. For any GPS triangulation experts out there pease don't slaughter me for my obviously poor layman's explanation that leaves out many things and lacks the correct math.

@ Swatski The new PP system should work in both APS equipped Connext and APS equipped non-connect boats given the controller to boat interface is the APS. Edit -- trying to be neutral and I neglected to mention that this is the same as R-S.

Sorry for all of the geek speak everyone. Just trying to flesh some stuff out that R-S and PP both know way better than I but that also may be material in making a decision if you are in the market.

 

[swatski]

@ Swatski The new PP system should work in both APS equipped Connext and APS equipped non-connect boats given the controller to boat interface is the APS. Edit -- trying to be neutral and I neglected to mention that this is the same as R-S.

Yes, I understand that part.
But I wonder if the JBP PP system draws all power - for the master module, display, and GPS and what not - through the switched power in the ignition, would that freak the Connext out? It doesn't take much, it will throw error code/ limp mode w/ battery switches turned off too quickly.


EDIT: But then again, I'm sure it's been thoroughly tested otherwise @JetBoatPilot wouldn't make the claims


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[Jester429]

Ive ordered the new perfect pass. Not a big fan of the knob myself i jist felt the pp would look cleaner on my boat. Dont really care if the speed is variable by .1 .2 or .3 as long as it does what its supposed to and keep my marriage intact!!!!

 

[Ridesteady]

Yes of course, good point as set and actual can vary. That question is geared towards what the system is capable of (set) and not what the boat/conditions are capable of (actual).

I get the GPS Rx but surely not comparing set to actual and then acting (or not acting on it if matched) 5 thousand times per second? If so holy cow and there becomes a number so high that is no longer perceivable like dropping a core i7 and 128 gigs of ddr ram in a basic desk calculator. Of course you know this.... it does not matter if a computer reads something 5 thousands time per second if only acts on once every 5000 seconds. Concurrent 5k rx is of course more than enough for this application. But lets say full end to end correction logic is cycling/looping at 100 hz (100 times per second) the algorithm/logic/program/code/engine that is being applied at that frequency still matters but then we are getting into the secret recipe so to speak and not something either you nor PP would want to disclose. This is why I kept it to correction actions per second. Of course the boat ECU may be the limiting factor in as far as how often it is able to act upon inputs and how quickly it does so. For those reading on the longer between correction actions (or non-action if set = actual) the less smooth the pull becomes and the more variance it will have. That of course has to be combined with resolution/precision inherent in the capabilities of the system and the code. Just tyring to give some fact based product comparison points for folks to base a decision on. Some of these numbers may be so high or low it does not even make a perceivable difference.

On satellites more = better as more = more precision. I don't know the actual precision numbers but as a high-level explination 3 satellites may give a precision of 100 yards and iterating a single digit in the response time string from one satellite may make the controller think you have moved 20 yards in 1000th of a second. That compared to 10 saletittes having a precision of 5 yards and string iterations only resulting in the controller thinking you moved 1 yard in 1000th of a second as opposed to the 20 in 1000th of a second. For any GPS triangulation experts out there pease don't slaughter me for my obviously poor layman's explanation that leaves out many things and lacks the correct math.

@ Swatski The new PP system should work in both APS equipped Connext and APS equipped non-connect boats given the controller to boat interface is the APS. Edit -- trying to be neutral and I neglected to mention that this is the same as R-S.

Sorry for all of the geek speak everyone. Just trying to flesh some stuff out that R-S and PP both know way better than I but that also may be material in making a decision if you are in the market.

Haha, no, not 5 kHz. 5 Hz. Yes, our system makes adjustment much more often than 5 Hz, but that's also fairly proprietary and don't think you'll get that info from either of us. The limiting factor is frankly not the boat ECU, but rather the frequency response of boats themselves (particularly when they're ballasted). Which is why a 5 Hz GPS is probably all we'll ever need (for speed-based mode, anyway). I think the latest software revision for our GPS allows 10 Hz (though not sure if in concurrent dual-GNSS mode). Faster GNSS-receiver update rates may make for slightly smoother operation, but honestly that has more to do with the accuracy of the calculations rather than the update rates.

We don't make the receiver chipsets (obviously), but my understanding is that for speed output they employ doppler calculations a fair amount. In other words, just as you can sort-of determine a car's speed with your eyes closed just by listening to the pitch of it going by, a similar principle is used in GPS receivers, except the satellite is the "car" and the radio signal is the "sound". More satellites gives you more options in terms of calculating the speed, and calibrating your precision clock. That said, we've seen plenty of GPS receivers that SUCK even though their specs are good. So you really can't base a receiver's performance solely on specs.

 

[djetok]

Am I the only one who thinks the buttons sound appealing?! I had RS and liked the knob, but I also like buttons, especially for speed adjustments. The knob is probably better for navigating. Touch screen would be the ultimate.

Man I thought buttons would be easier too. Then I think about the whole trying to push the button while bouncing on the water.

 

[MidnightRider]

Ive ordered the new perfect pass. Not a big fan of the knob myself i jist felt the pp would look cleaner on my boat. Dont really care if the speed is variable by .1 .2 or .3 as long as it does what its supposed to and keep my marriage intact!!!!

Not trying to discourage you but the variable speed piece would be the least of my concerns from what we’ve heard so far. It’s hard to know what we know but this “easier” install by means of eliminating some of the wiring/connection runs seems like could be problematic and/or substandard (ie no rpm harness, simplified power harness)

 

[swatski]

Ive ordered the new perfect pass. Not a big fan of the knob myself i jist felt the pp would look cleaner on my boat. Dont really care if the speed is variable by .1 .2 or .3 as long as it does what its supposed to and keep my marriage intact!!!!

Hope you get the whole package, the new PP, TVWs, and the big 600lbs steel shot ballast bag if you surf!
Let us know how it goes.

—

 

[Jester429]

Not trying to discourage you but the variable speed piece would be the least of my concerns from what we’ve heard so far. It’s hard to know what we know but this “easier” install by means of eliminating some of the wiring/connection runs seems like could be problematic and/or substandard (ie no rpm harness, simplified power harness)

I already read through the installation guide on perfect pass website and will be making some modifications to it. Im not sure how much power it draws but it wont be powered from the ignition switch directly. Fused and relayed and soldiered connections are in order. Screw those t taps.

 

[Betik]

less and less like the victim and more like the agitator.

That is right because in today’s society victims have the right to remain silent and anything they say might be used against them in the court of public opinion.

Give the man a break. He has been more of a gentleman than any of us would been. If he wanted to cause damage he would have taken this to court for a derogatory entry on JBP business credit report. Now that would have been what I call “ playing by the rule book you wrote”.

 

[Julian]

I don't have a horse in this race a my boat already has speed & launch control but on the knob vs button question, I'm leary of knobs with as many Polk audio knobs we've had coming off! But those are in a much wetter spot.....time will tell.

 

[MattFX4]

Man I thought buttons would be easier too. Then I think about the whole trying to push the button while bouncing on the water.

True but trying to turn a dial while bouncing around on water. I also wonder about the dial being a weak point to water entrance, similar to the dial on the swim platform stereo control. The raised buttons on a screen can be sealed.

 

[swatski]

I don't have a horse in this race a my boat already has speed & launch control but on the knob vs button question, I'm leary of knobs with as many Polk audio knobs we've had coming off! But those are in a much wetter spot.....time will tell.

RideSteady: Hands down the best cruise control system for a YAMAHA, if you ever try it I think you will likely agree.

I've taken my R-S just about anywhere by now... And I mean... Bimini 2017 crossing was... no joke and all salt, I've used the R-S for over 200hrs total. Peviously I've had the PP for maybe 100hr (total engine time, not PP use) but used very sporadically not constantly like I use R-S (for various obvious reasons, the old PP servos would burn and it was not easy to change setting under way).

The buttons/arrows require some dexterity to push and hold, the R-S knob is easy to grab or slide your finger over it, even gloved hand which I do a lot in the Fall/Winter. In my situation, I can lock/support my elbow on the coaming/side of the helm and easily operate the knob even in the most ridiculously rough conditions.

Maybe if the buttons are as big as the buttons on the Connext joystick pad it would be different? - those are super easy to push and hold. But if the new PP buttons/arrow shaped are the same as old, this is not even remotely close of a contest, IMO.
If they use the same screen, about half of those die about a year or two in. They turn black (easy replacement, BTW, for ~$300).

But really, I'm wondering as I write this: has ANYONE used the JBP PP in a Yamaha, yet?


EDIT: BTW - the patent battles in that space is actually interesting story. PP got caught stealing the patent from Econtrols/Zero-off, and promptly settled to basically be allowed to continue providing servo-based speed control in non-fly-by-wire boats. But the original patent expired recently (2016?), anyway. Search for PerfectPass / ZERO OFF agreement if curious. Looks like no one can touch factory (OEM) fly-by-wire systems for speed control (Zero-off has that covered?).


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[Lee18]

I just installed my R-S last week. It's great!!! The knob is much easier to feel and control than push buttons especially in choppy/rough water. You don't really have to look for it. Just feel and turn slowly and the the speed increases/decreased smoothly. It's accurate to .01 MPH. I have not found any problems in my initial test runs. I am still working out the ballast situation to get the perfect balance for the wave. I have a 2013 AR190. I was originally told to use 1200lbs in a certain configuration. This did not work as the boat would not plane and the engine was working way too hard. I was than told by the same person that 1200 was a mistake and I should drop to 600 total. That's was unfortunate because I wasted several hundred dollars on 600lbs of ballast bags I will never need. I plan to go out tomorrow and rig up the system to see how it goes. I also bought and installed the new JBP TVW. First test was ok. I think I have to tweak it a bit. Will see how everything works together. Fingers crossed.
I am also thinking of getting an L13 based on all the comments I have read here. Will consider this after my test runs and see if I still need an upgrade.
On another unrelated note, I hope someone can help with my Monster wakeboard rack not staying in place. I have the rings inside to take up the space but it keeps spinning on the Yamaha tower. I have it as tight as it can possible be (there is a space between the connector rings) and it still spins. It is mounted on a vertical post and after some time the back of the boards are facing into the boat (it swings/rotates horizontally). I have put electrical tape on the post but that actually made the situation worse. Any guidance/help would be appreciated.