Yamaha Boats featured on Today show story about Carbon Monoxide

[HangOutdoors]

So I was trying to determine at what level (PPM) is CO2 concerning. I came across the following, and it suggesting that up to 1000 PPM, can be deemed typical of occupied spaces. Any thoughts?

View attachment 161808

Several threads on it in the forums.

https://jetboaters.net/threads/2022-yahama-195s-deposit.32765/post-537600

If you ever thought carbon monoxide poisoning could not happen on your boat, read this | JetBoaters.net - The World's Largest Jet Boat Forum!

Its basically ppm over time which can build over multiple exposures during the CO's half life. So even minimal time with high PPM over repetition on same day could cause a lethal build up. Or minimal PPM over shorter time with repetition can cause a lethal build up.

It also builds up in the body and doesn't vacate quickly. The half-life of carboxyhemoglobin is approximately 5 hours. This means that for a given exposure level, it will take about 5 hours for the level of carboxyhemoglobin in the blood to drop to half its current level after the exposure is terminated. Which means multiple short sessions have a period of a long session, this is typically what causes the grave circumstances on a boat. Furthermore it isn't just the amount of time you are exposed, it is also about PPM over time, so a broad statement such as "Not long" is of no significance unless you can determine the PPM rate. A chart below for reference, that I copied.

PPM CO	Time	Symptoms
35	8 hours	Maximum exposure allowed by OSHA in the workplace over an eight hour period.
200	2-3 hours	Mild headache, fatigue, nausea and dizziness.
400	1-2 hours	Serious headache-other symptoms intensify. Life threatening after 3 hours.
800	45 minutes	Dizziness, nausea and convulsions. Unconscious within 2 hours. Death within 2-3 hours.
1600	20 minutes	Headache, dizziness and nausea. Death within 1 hour.
3200	5-10 minutes	Headache, dizziness and nausea. Death within 1 hour.
6400	1-2 minutes	Headache, dizziness and nausea. Death within 25-30 minutes.
12,800	1-3 minutes	Death

Since you don't vacate it the moment you stop inhaling it, is where things can get bad. If you re expose during the day (check Half Life of CO in body) then it just adds and adds.

 

[HangOutdoors]

I've done it too but after watching this I'm not going to any more. I'm even going to make it a point to always cut the engines off anytime anyone is back near that region. I knew there was CO from the exhaust but was a little surprised by how much in the video. If anything this video, although filled with lots of BS, did shed some light on a potential risk in my boating habits.

Buy CO alarms. I purchased two and have one stuck to my swim platform and one in the back cockpit next to where the water drain is. Believe it or not that one in the cockpit will go off if the conditions are right both at no wake and at speed. Their is a pocket that forms back there. Although the PPM count is very low.

 

[HangOutdoors]

I am not diminishing this tragedy at all.

In my opinion the Operator/Captain should always be aware and understand the risk of boating and how to safely operate the craft, that is the responsibility of the captian. From no wake, to navigation, to safe operation, etc. etc. If you don't, you shouldn't be driving a boat and should be held liable for anything that occurs while you are operating it. Those that rent or lease boats should also be diligent and held responsible for the proper operation of their watercraft and only allow individuals whom are properly trained and/or educated to use one. Finally, Manufactures should go the extra mile and warning stickers where they need to be as well as documentation in the manual. I would also have a small booklet specifically based on the proper safety and operation and that needs to be gone over by the dealer with customer as part of the walkthrough.

Let's face it, give me your check, here are the keys,, that is the keel and pump plug and you put gas in here, is lacking. I also feel it should be mandatory for all ages to go through boater safety. We do it for driving cars.

I see people all the time riding on the swim platform cruising around. Last year I mentioned it more than once and all I got was, "Thanks", "Whatever" or looks that I am stupid.

 

[tkeru408]

So I was trying to determine at what level (PPM) is CO2 concerning. I came across the following, and it suggesting that up to 1000 PPM, can be deemed typical of occupied spaces. Any thoughts?

View attachment 161808

That info is for carbon dioxide (CO2), not the same as carbon monoxide (CO). Info below from CPSC website (Carbon-Monoxide-Questions-and-Answers):

The health effects of CO depend on the CO concentration and length of exposure, as well as each individual's health condition. CO concentration is measured in parts per million (ppm). Most people will not experience any symptoms from prolonged exposure to CO levels of approximately 1 to 70 ppm but some heart patients might experience an increase in chest pain. As CO levels increase and remain above 70 ppm, symptoms become more noticeable and can include headache, fatigue and nausea. At sustained CO concentrations above 150 to 200 ppm, disorientation, unconsciousness, and death are possible.

 

[Julian]

Looking at other articles:

The Ohio Department of Natural Resources said Sidloski was hanging onto the swim platform of a boat before she disappeared into the water. Now, officials say she likely inhaled carbon monoxide from the boat, which caused her to dip below the water. She was not wearing a life jacket.​

From a different one:

In addition to this, the caller also explained that they saw Sidloski hanging off of the swim board and she was seen taking a breath, holding her nose before she went under and did not come back up. The boat that Sidloski was on was a 21-foot, 2018 Yamaha speed boat, which also had 14 other people. It was also reported that the boat was officially meant for a group consisting of 10 individuals and that this is one of the things that will be included in the investigation along with Sidloski's toxicology report.​

​

Sounds like she was in the water, while the engine was running, nose effectively in the exhaust pipe, inhaling fumes - OPERATOR ERROR! (while the driver partied with the 12 other people in his overloaded boat)

A lot of wake boats have a turned down exhaust pipe with some sort of fresh air system for the sterns. Is this a possibility on future Yamahas or aftermarket on current models?

These help put the exhaust into the water behind the prop rather than straight into the air behind the boat. Most of it will bubble right back out but further away from the boat. I/Os and OBs do effectively the same thing by exhausting through the prop. But when idling it will just bubble to the surface. The problem is simply that inhaling that exhaust is going to happen no matter what type of boat you have. The attorney is saying - but Yamaha puts SEATS on the stern - encouraging you to sit back there - which is a valid point - but they also have LOTS of warnings about NOT sitting there when the boat is running. And seats like that aren't just a Yamaha thing.

 

[suke]

Watch the video… you can clearly see the warning stickers on the boats swim deck area.

YUP! Directly over where that lawyers head was a sticker that warned of CO poisioning. Idiot! Good luck suing and getting anything of value. They have warnings all over the place. Sadly this was a case of darwin winning out, not a boat manufacturer being negligent.

 

[suke]

Looking at other articles:

The Ohio Department of Natural Resources said Sidloski was hanging onto the swim platform of a boat before she disappeared into the water. Now, officials say she likely inhaled carbon monoxide from the boat, which caused her to dip below the water. She was not wearing a life jacket.​

From a different one:

In addition to this, the caller also explained that they saw Sidloski hanging off of the swim board and she was seen taking a breath, holding her nose before she went under and did not come back up. The boat that Sidloski was on was a 21-foot, 2018 Yamaha speed boat, which also had 14 other people. It was also reported that the boat was officially meant for a group consisting of 10 individuals and that this is one of the things that will be included in the investigation along with Sidloski's toxicology report.​

​

Sounds like she was in the water, while the engine was running, nose effectively in the exhaust pipe, inhaling fumes - OPERATOR ERROR! (while the driver partied with the 12 other people in his overloaded boat)



These help put the exhaust into the water behind the prop rather than straight into the air behind the boat. Most of it will bubble right back out but further away from the boat. I/Os and OBs do effectively the same thing by exhausting through the prop. But when idling it will just bubble to the surface. The problem is simply that inhaling that exhaust is going to happen no matter what type of boat you have. The attorney is saying - but Yamaha puts SEATS on the stern - encouraging you to sit back there - which is a valid point - but they also have LOTS of warnings about NOT sitting there when the boat is running. And seats like that aren't just a Yamaha thing.

TONS of wake boat manufacturers have seats back there. Also the sunpad is a HUGE draw and I see ladies laying on the back all the time while the boat is in motion. Which according to the manufacturer is a no-no and is an offense that can get you a ticket. Still people do it.

 

[HangOutdoors]

I wonder, and I am no engineer, but is there a way remove or convert the CO into something else or run it through a filter in the exhaust so it negates the issues? Guess electric jet boats are going to be thing someday.

 

[seanmclean]

I’d like to know what else the coroners report said besides ”cause of death drowning with CO a contributing factor“. So the death was caused by drowning, not by CO as the headlines leads the reader to believe.

If someone drowns because they were incapacitated or impaired by CO in their bloodstream, then the cause of death would be drowning secondary to CO poisoning. That's how coroners reports work. If you get shot to death, its not the shooting that is on your death certificate, its whatever the proximal cause of death was, secondary to a gunshot wound.

 

[Evil Sports]

Watch as the value of our boats plummet

 

[bthessel]

Heard about this when it first happened as I am a University of Cincinnati fan and live not far from this lake and it was all over the local news. I told my wife the day it happened I bet it was CO as the cause. Curious the boat would be a rental as that is not something common around here. This is a fairly small lake with no marina. Not a lot of details but wondering if the captain had just started the boat and she decided to jump in and pee before they took off.

 

[Julian]

Heard about this when it first happened as I am a University of Cincinnati fan and live not far from this lake and it was all over the local news. I told my wife the day it happened I bet it was CO as the cause. Curious the boat would be a rental as that is not something common around here. This is a fairly small lake with no marina. Not a lot of details but wondering if the captain had just started the boat and she decided to jump in and pee before they took off.

I read the post, and I'm not sure it was a rental....that might be my fault....the reporters RENTED a boat to test it.....I can't find anything that says it was a rental boat. Looks like a bunch of teens - probably out on parents boat.....teen driver not paying attention - or adult driver too busy looking at teen bodies!

 

[Southernerd]

I am not diminishing this tragedy at all.

In my opinion the Operator/Captain should always be aware and understand the risk of boating and how to safely operate the craft, that is the responsibility of the captian. From no wake, to navigation, to safe operation, etc. etc. If you don't, you shouldn't be driving a boat and should be held liable for anything that occurs while you are operating it. Those that rent or lease boats should also be diligent and held responsible for the proper operation of their watercraft and only allow individuals whom are properly trained and/or educated to use one. Finally, Manufactures should go the extra mile and warning stickers where they need to be as well as documentation in the manual. I would also have a small booklet specifically based on the proper safety and operation and that needs to be gone over by the dealer with customer as part of the walkthrough.

Let's face it, give me your check, here are the keys,, that is the keel and pump plug and you put gas in here, is lacking. I also feel it should be mandatory for all ages to go through boater safety. We do it for driving cars.

I see people all the time riding on the swim platform cruising around. Last year I mentioned it more than once and all I got was, "Thanks", "Whatever" or looks that I am stupid.

The negligence of the captain would absolutely be defense asserted by Yamaha to lessen any exposure they may have.

 

[2kwik4u]

I wonder, and I am no engineer, but is there a way remove or convert the CO into something else or run it through a filter in the exhaust so it negates the issues? Guess electric jet boats are going to be thing someday.

Lithium Hydroxide is used as a chemical scrubber in many applications. It's a once time use chemical reaction canister usually though.

Putting a chemical scrubber on an exhaust system is a wildly complex end expensive task, I doubt we'll ever see any consumer product with one because of it. Mechanical scrubbers are even more difficult and often include cryo-treating the gas stream to get the chemicals to separate.

Source: Designed CO2 and CO scrubbers for ISS payloads in a previous life. I wasn't the chemist, just the ME that had to make the housings that held them, but have a basic understanding of how the chemistry works.

 

[Southernerd]

I wonder, and I am no engineer, but is there a way remove or convert the CO into something else or run it through a filter in the exhaust so it negates the issues? Guess electric jet boats are going to be thing someday.

I don't think you can oxidize a hydrocarbon in a way that doesn't produce CO2. There are people working on recapture devices for autos but realistically, I don't see how they would be practicable considering the actual volume of gas being produced. Even though a gallon of gas only weighs a little over 6lbs, once oxidized it produces around 20lbs of CO2. If you had a device that captured these emissions, you'd end up with 800lbs of spent CO2 per 40 gallon tank.

 

[Dave burke]

If everyone was forced to take a boater's safety course in order to operate a boat they would know about the dangers.
Ask the typical boater why they shouldn't be sitting on a sun deck and swim platform why it's dangerous and they will tell you because of the prop.
This is why people think it's safe to sit on the back of a jet boat.
I saw this crew last weekend while I was anchored, later in the day I tried to find them to give them a heads up about sitting back there but I couldn't find them.
The owner is a younger guy and he would probably tell me to F-off anyway.

View attachment 161801

this is really scary. They’re moving slowly so the CO may be a little bit better than idling. But it’s still incredibly stupid.

 

[Dave burke]

Great point on the CO alarm @HangOutdoors. I have several in my house and cottage but not on my boat. Which brand did you buy and where did you get it?

 

[bthessel]

Ohio requires a boater safety course if born after 1980. The captain of this boat is 100% at fault here. Over the stated capacity and people not seated inside the boat while it is moving. Both violations of the law in Ohio.

 

[HangOutdoors]

Great point on the CO alarm @HangOutdoors. I have several in my house and cottage but not on my boat. Which brand did you buy and where did you get it?

Bought two of these. Work fantastic. Goes down to 9ppm.

Amazon.com: Car, Vehicle, Aircraft Carbon Monoxide CO Detector | Fast Low-Level 9ppm Alarm | Vehicles, Police, Pilots, Travel, Bus, Trucks | Metal Body, Small 2oz | : Tools & Home Improvement

 

[Matt Phillips]

Um...in many states it's also illegal to be sitting back there while the boat is running....